Could Cibachrome come back?

[DREW WILEY]

Bob, although only of a few of my larger Ciba prints are still on hand, having sold most of them, I have maybe 200 smaller ones, going right back to the introduction of the process in this country, which still look perfect after several decades. I've got one early set that sat in indirect mountain sunlight over 25 years before I removed it, and it still look vibrant. I don't know exactly how you mounted or lit them, but every single time I've heard that kind of story, something was amiss in the display method, either involving the kind of adhesive or the UV output of the lighting. I once did an experiment with full disclosure to the client in advance. I figured out how to mount Ciba glass smooth with the same kind of adhesive in a spray booth (for safety) that pros used to flawlessly mount reflective wallpaper onto totally smooth walls (itself a difficult craft). I framed a 20x24 for them, and they put in in their home under standard tungsten indoor lights, and it has remained good for over 20 yrs now. Then I took the other sample and put it in direct sunlight in my own window, and it faded totally out in less than two weeks. It was the combination of UV and that totally wrong kind of chemical adhesive that produced the disparity, and proved a hunch to myself. I've run all kinds of my own torture tests on them to learn the truth. By contrast, every one of my RA4 prints of similar vintage has yellowed to some extent. I probably won't live long enough to correctly evaluate the latest generation of Crystal Archive materials, but Fuji distinctly hints that the polyester Fujiflex version of it is likely to be the most permanent, presumably because residual color couplers rinse out better than on RC paper base. And I don't know where you encountered guarantees of 200 year permanence on anything. I've spoken to the patent holders of Cibachrome in person, when it was under Ciba-Geigy auspices, and they never made any such claim. Sounds more like a ploy by a marketing person somewhere in the system. Very few colorants truly withstand UV or oxidation for a long time. If you want the same clean true blue pigment that Michelangelo used on the Sistine Chapel ceiling, that now still looks stunning after the ceiling has been cleaned, and the same vibrant green (devoid of the off-color of synthetic phtahlo colorants), no problem - just rob all of Germany like Pope Leo did, re-mortgage the Vatican, and pay more per ounce than gold for ground select lapis lazuli and choice malachite. And if you have an even better budget than that, you could get a real nice process cyan by grinding up enough select turquoise pieces. I'll tip off the mine owner in central Nevada that you need a large quantity, so he has something to keep him active the next few hundred years. But please don't waste your time looting Bigfoot's grave to acquire such jewels; his wife has them, and even wears them to the annual Bigfoot formal dance party; so mug her.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Drew , you are always a jewel in the rough to talk with, I hope you are safe with Covid and keep on truckin - Bob

 

[DREW WILEY]

We're doing fine, Bob. I'm on a drymounting marathon, and my wife has to work longer hours at the clinic than normal because most of the office staff had to be laid off, and she now has to do a lot of her own paperwork. Medical clinics are struggling to break even just like other businesses. All her patient contact is now remote via web conferencing. I hope you are doing well. It might be a rough ride for galleries for awhile, just like restaurants; but I hope your lab business will help balance out the chuckholes.

 

[eli griggs]

I love working with ilford-Ciba Cibachrome, in the early-mid 1980s, and I never had any issues I could no address in the same session of printing, unless I was tired from running back and forth from Charlotte to my home in Wadesboro and back again, sometimes three times a day.

The chemistry was simple enough and and a good print from a good slide offered no difficulties.

Frankly, it was little more difficult than Silver Gelatin printmaking, except in winter, in my heater-less darkroom (my kitchen) and that was easy enough to resolve in the sink, as the big double water heater had been set to it's highest setting, by my Uncle, before I had the place from my grandmother.

I never ran low on scalding water.

As for the chemistry, as I recall, it was designed to neutralize its-self, in the same order of processing as the prints.

I was mainly photographing professional dancers, Ballet and Modern Dance mostly, and the subtle colours of the wardrobes and ever varying lighting, were perfectly suited to the medium.

Maybe I was lucky, or found my sweet spot in colour materials, but just by following the 'Rules' of the materials, it came all together and Dancers, etc, simply loved the resulting images.

I would love to print in Cibachrome again, and the paper did no bother me in the least, but still again, I'm a junky for fine papers, by way of art and my woodcut printmaking, so that might of changed.

Making colour prints today, with typical colour processes, does no interest me, but there are always chances that the stars may come together in the correct alignment for magics, so who knows, one day... perhaps.

IMO.

 

[Randy Stewart]

"The bleach required an accelerant. However it has been so long that people have forgotten just what it is. Searching the web provides no information."

It is not so much that the Cibachrome bleach formula as been forgotten over time. From the first intoduction of Cibachrome, Ilford zealiously guarded the proprietary bleach formula so it would have no independent market competition. Additionally, it was generally understood that the bleach contained one ingredient which only Ciba (the Swiss chemical company involved) manufactured specifically for this printing system. By comparison, the developer and fixer parts of the process were ordinary and subject to substitution with good results. With the Ilford bankruptcy, all of the equipment used to manufacture the paper and chemistry was sold off. Given the flexibility of digital processing of positive image, and the very time consuming usage and technical limits of the Cibachrome process, I think the probability of its re-creation as a marketed product is absolutely zero even if Ilford published all of the related technical data and manufacturing information. That is too bad, because some of the most striking prints you might ever see (usually very large too) were made by scanning positives or negatives to a digital file, then using a laser process to "print" the image directly onto Cibachrome paper, then conventional processing. The digital stage of the process allowed a degree of fine tuning of the image which could not exist with a normal light printing process.

 

[DREW WILEY]

There is enough on the hazard labeling and MSDS sheet to give one a clue. Any serious research lab could deconstruct the product. The main ingredient of pro P3 and P3X was con sulfuric acid. And yes, it could ruin non-plastic drain pipes unless neutralized. The amateur P30 bleach substituted somewhat less hazardous powder sulfamic acid; but it could ruin metal pipes too unless neutralized with something like baking soda. Spent developer was not sufficiently alkaline to do a good job of that. Ilfochrome was in the completely different Swiss division than the British black and white products. I doubt its gradual demise and the restructuring of Ilford UK had much in common. The steady emergence of digital printing options did, but not until Cibachrome sales were weakened for other reasons. One of them had to do with sloppy distribution. Here in the US, importation and distribution passed through maybe three phases, the last of them involving some very careless warehousing. If you were trying to make your living at it, and a high priced order arrived late, expired, or seriously damaged, you would naturally be getting frustrated. Then hazmat restrictions and maintenance issues started building up due to all that corrosive acid; so did health issues. But Randy is completely wrong by implying that digital printing of Ciba improved anything. At best it could merely mimic what any good optical printer could do better. But gaining serious masking equipment and skills was important. And making really big Cibachromes required seriously powerful colorheads which most amateurs couldn't afford. For those who want to revive the look of Cibachrome, Fuji Supergloss is a very worthy replacement, and much easier to use. But it's an RA4 material; so you either need to print from color negs or internegs from chromes, or indeed, scan and laser print.

 

[Bob Carnie]

"The bleach required an accelerant. However it has been so long that people have forgotten just what it is. Searching the web provides no information."

It is not so much that the Cibachrome bleach formula as been forgotten over time. From the first intoduction of Cibachrome, Ilford zealiously guarded the proprietary bleach formula so it would have no independent market competition. Additionally, it was generally understood that the bleach contained one ingredient which only Ciba (the Swiss chemical company involved) manufactured specifically for this printing system. By comparison, the developer and fixer parts of the process were ordinary and subject to substitution with good results. With the Ilford bankruptcy, all of the equipment used to manufacture the paper and chemistry was sold off. Given the flexibility of digital processing of positive image, and the very time consuming usage and technical limits of the Cibachrome process, I think the probability of its re-creation as a marketed product is absolutely zero even if Ilford published all of the related technical data and manufacturing information. That is too bad, because some of the most striking prints you might ever see (usually very large too) were made by scanning positives or negatives to a digital file, then using a laser process to "print" the image directly onto Cibachrome paper, then conventional processing. The digital stage of the process allowed a degree of fine tuning of the image which could not exist with a normal light printing process.

There were a lot of people making their own custom developers for Cibachrome, going back to the 70's 80's when I was first introduced to it. The bleach was one formula I was never able to get, if I had the ability to custom scratch mix all my own I doubt I would have stopped. I bought one of the last run of Cibachrome 32 inch processors that were ever made in the late 90's and as Randy says combined with a laser printer the prints were incredible...Dealing with Ilford Switzerland was impossible and their represetatives Wynit was a complete crap show... I would order all my chems and run for a few weeks and then shut down to clean the machine and wait fro the next run of cibas, during this short period of time it was very profitalble, Near the end though components were always missing for the chemicals and would create chaos .

 

[DREW WILEY]

I could still print it if I bothered to thaw my last box of paper. The P3 chem is likely still good, but I have little doubt the paper would have serious crossover issues. It can always be fixed out, and the base itself be used for something unrelated, whether as a coating substrate for some alt process, or as an excellent material for cut-outs, like format windows in enlarger carriers or on groundglass backs etc. I can't remember all the detail of how they unwound. They went from Ciba-Geigy to Ilford rather smoothy, but then I think to Oji Paper, when distribution became dicey. I don't recall if Wynit was involved here in the U.S. I was already getting darn frustrated with damaged goods and unpredictable delays. I'd have to talk to a friend who did Ciba on very large scale and volume. What changed his mind was surgery on both his lungs to remove scar tissue, along with a $600,000 plumbing bill to replace the pipes. But he didn't care much for the results he was getting with his laser printers on any medium. It took awhile to iron out the bugs on that method of printing. He could afford to throw equipment away right and left and repurchase. The other labs couldn't. I'm small scale, so stuck with simple drums. Almost no overhead that way. Making a 30X40 inch print in a big drum is really no harder than making an 8x10 print or even a test strip in a smaller drum. Now all of that has transitioned to RA4 anyway. And the extra firepower of the big enlargers makes it easier to focus and compose through the orange mask on color neg film, while the printing times are substantially shorter. I thoroughly enjoyed my Ciba years, and even complex masking became relatively intuitive and efficient. But I wouldn't go back now.

 

[DREW WILEY]

That whole laser printing thing was forced on us by King George back when Cibachrome processing still involved British tea, the secret ingredient to the bleach that everyone has forgotten. But they knew about it back then and threw it into Boston Harbor as a means of protest. Some of my own ancestors remained loyal to the King and fled to Canada, where laser printing continued.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Hi Drew I see the local mushroom season is now in full swing in California,

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Hi Drew I see the local mushroom season is now in full swing in California,

 

[DREW WILEY]

Mushroom soup stock in the developer. Now there's an idea. Bob - the first serious "line generator" system of construction lasers was based right across the Bay in Sausalito, noted for it's "alternative lifestyle" houseboat populace. The big project back then was to develop a green line laser, because it's easier to see than red. I asked them why they bothered, because being in Sausalito they could just hand out certain pills, and people could see any color they wished!