Corporations and Big Boobs – A commentary.

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lxdude

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What does "greed" mean, exactly? Does it mean wanting the largest possible return on one's invested capital? What is "reasonable" and who defines it?

I know what you mean. Shareholders invest to make money, and seldom know businesses they invest in.
Along with that, though, is the problem of management constantly looking at the next quarter, because they believe they need to maximize short term gain. Which makes it difficult to take a long range approach which may be better for the company in the long run.
Not relating this to Kodak; just sayin'.

To me, "greed" is wanting immediate turnaround on investment, immediate profit without concern for long-term health of a company. By making it difficult for management to make prudent long-term plans requiring patience to see through, it also makes it difficult for prudent investors to select long range investments.
 
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fotch

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What does "greed" mean, exactly? Does it mean wanting the largest possible return on one's invested capital? What is "reasonable" and who defines it?

This sort of post has me tearing at my hair, in its casual mating of sanctimony to ignorance.

On the internet, fools rule! :D
 

lxdude

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Mozaktly!


...and Ilford seems like they have tried to do this. Their appeal to me is not that I view their films as superior to Kodak's. It is that they have a far more complete "total solution" for film photographers. There are a few gaps, but nowhere near as gaping as Kodak's...and in the past few years, they have filled in gaps more than enlarging them, as Kodak has done.

Interesting comment. On the last tour in Oct 2008 I think it was Simon Galley who said that Ilford Satin paper sold in very small volumes compared to Pearl and Glossy and yet there has been no indication that Satin is about to be discontinued. Maybe because it is part of the "paper family" which Ilford sees as being valued as a family by consumers who are then more loyal so a near break even or slight loss product actually cements the customer to the company and makes economic sense when not regarded as a single unit.

pentaxuser

I think this gets to what a lot of people believe. If a company is willing to carry a marginal product, one which does not make them much money but serves the needs of a segment of their customers, there is a perception that the company will look after the customers. When the perception is that a cold, hard calculus is used regarding under-performing products by people looking at numbers and not at customers, alienation and resentment result.


I think many believe that the products being discontinued by Kodak are not necessarily money-losers, but represent small enough numbers that they are judged to be not worth bothering with. I don't know if that's true, but I do think there is something to the concept of a full line retaining customer loyalty, even if some products lose some money.


I don't know if Tri-X 320 actually lost money or not. If so, it's hard to assert as the department head, that it should have been retained. It may have been that a downward trend showed it going past break-even with the next coating. It's awfully hard for a department head to plead for preservation of products over and over, especially if they feel that they must choose which to defend. Unless they can show management that there is an overriding concern, like market presence, not just market share, they may find themselves without enough political capital when they most need it.


There's a fine line to tread. If someone sees Ilford committed to film and Kodak seeming to waver, they might consider it more prudent to give their business to Ilford, to help ensure that they will still be around when Kodak gets out of the market.


I do think it was stupid of Kodak management to announce plans years ago to move away from the film market, and it did not sit well with all investors, either. By announcing it, every film termination has the appearance of fulfilling the management's wishes. They seemed to be viewing digital and film as mutually exclusive, or film as dead. As they appeared so willing to toss their historical business, they appeared also willing to toss their loyal user base.


They clearly cannot afford to jettison all film at this time, as its profits cover digital's losses. So it's not that they won't support a money-losing product, it's that they see digital as their future, and film as their past. With their vision and goals so directed, it's not hard to see why people would no longer believe Kodak supports their interests to the degree it could.


If Kodak were not in digital they would either be in film and resigned to being a small company, or would be in something else that they believed held promise of growth. Success in digital is not assured, as they are up against companies who are long experienced in electronics. What if their sensor sales tank, due to not having competitive enough products, or the market for sensors drying up as camera makers create their own, or something else? If the margins and volume become too small, how is that different from a poorly selling, barely break-even film?


I'd bet there are people who are competent to run Kodak who wouldn't be willing to, given what it's facing in the future.
 
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lxdude

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If I follow correctly, this theory holds that Kodak had a product that was flying off the shelves, and decided that this profitable situation was intolerable. They decided to obstruct and delay delivery of said product to the customer in order to kill the product. Makes sense. I'm sure the shareholders would approve.

320TXP, beloved film of Birthers, Kennedy-assassination and 9/11-conspiracy theorists, Roswell denizens, and alien abductors.

"O Judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts, and men have lost their reason."

Well, sarcasm aside, I have seen products killed this way. A low volume product was kept in the catalog, sometimes because customers demand it, but it just never actually got made, usually because they didn't want deal with it. To them it was a hassle, and tied up capacity that could be used for something more common. Sometimes they seemed to spend more time and effort bitching and moaning about it than it would have taken to just make it.
So even though there was money to be made, especially with special-order parts, it was forfeited. If a big enough customer bitched loudly enough it got made.
Not saying that's what Kodak did.

BTW. I personally know denizens of Roswell N.M., and they're not cranks or loonies. Roswell is a real place, y'know.
I don't know any alien abductors. I thought the aliens were doing the abducting.
 
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mikebarger

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Even if you make money on the low volume SKU, it still costs money to make line changes, additional storage space for the SKU, and on and on.

This isn't a bad strategy as long as your big SKU's keep line time full. Good chance (film or any other consumable) the customer of the low volume SKU's will move to the higher volume SKU. If you lose a few customers of the low volume SKU, savings related to fewer line changes and other associated costs more than make up the difference.
 

Tim Gray

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It may have been that a downward trend showed it going past break-even with the next coating.

I don't know since I don't work at Kodak or in the photo industry, but I think this is an important point to consider. Even if they made $1000 or $0.01 on this last coating, they next coating might have been projected to be a big loser. Better to cut that product before you coat it.
 
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lxdude

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lxdude,

The situation you mention seems illogical but perhaps not unrealistic. Why risk the bad will when profit is still assured?

Tom

It is illogical, it's short-sighted, but it happens nonetheless.

I've seen it more than once, in more than one company. In a really well run company it is less likely, but I still have heard managers say something to the effect of "Screw that order" because a particular item was, according to them, "a pain in the ass to handle and we don't sell many of them anyway".


I worked for a company that made heat sinks, mainly for the Telecom industry. When everything was going gangbusters and demand was high, the smaller customers that had been with the company when it was starting out were considered too much trouble to bother with. The smaller jobs would get made, but seldom on time.

The company only took care of their bigger customers, cranking out parts of often questionable quality. The smaller orders were not of the same priority as they didn't represent the same amount of profit. The difference was not exorbitant. It's just that when the added cost to procure the material, set up the machine, and get the first article inspected so the job could run, cuts into per part profit by say, a dollar out of 20, some people see that as a big negative. They don't see the other 19 bucks. Compared to a job where a setup can run for weeks, therefore producing higher per-part profit the longer it runs, some people can get very negative toward anything that isn't similar.

A shop manager usually doesn't care about profit potential of a product, just how much of a headache it represents. So there's more resistance there.

The go-for-the-easy-buck tactic worked fine for the company until Telecom crashed, and they had to start looking for work. The big customers' orders were much smaller. Then the big customers gave notice that they were trimming their vendor base, and our past quality issues meant that we were getting dropped as a vendor. The owner himself contacted the original customers he had willingly neglected, but most told him they had found other vendors when he failed to deliver, and they had few new orders even for those vendors. A couple of companies threw us a few bones, but that was it. The company went from running three shifts to having everybody work 32 hours a week, sometimes less, in one shift.

For that reason, I was off on Sept. 11, 2001. The next day the place was closed permanently, as the boss just threw in the towel. Nobody ever got paid their last check, and everybody, including the CEO, discovered the company had not been paying into their 401(k) plans for months.


Companies consist of people and reflect the shortcomings of people. Even among top ranks, professionalism, even common sense, doesn't always prevail. Politics are unavoidable in management. Throughout, people are often just trying to get through the day without irritating the boss.


This is not universal. Many companies are dynamic, willing to take on new challenges. A huge challenge is not becoming complacent as they mature.
 

mikebarger

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I'm not sure your example has as much to do with line time and associated costs as poor QA. If I read your example right... if QA had been kept up you wouldn't have been kicked of the vendor list. Another difference is the small customers your talking about were buying the same product? If so, that doesn't make much sense. That isn't the case in the Kodak example (everyone wanting the same SKU).

Sounds like a Foma decision.

Mike
 

eddym

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Sounds to me like a business that got what they deserved for making poor products, cheating both their customers and theirs employees. But I see no relation to Kodak at all, who has always made quality products. That doesn't mean Kodak has not made decisions that I (we) don't agree with or like.
 

lxdude

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Mike, Eddy,

It was not meant to relate to Kodak. Kodak's quality is exemplary.


Nor was it even meant to bolster the original statement that Kodak was killing off a product by not shipping it. It was a response to a statement by MikeSeb making fun of that statement.
I was just saying that I have seen profitable products killed off by inaction. I did say that I wasn't saying that's what Kodak did.

Then a question was asked in response to that, asking why anyone would do that, as it's illogical, and why they would risk bad will when profit is still assured.

My account was to show illogical behavior in which a company short-sightedly abandoned customers and substantial profit because it was easier than continuing to serve their needs. They also failed to serve their top customers by often shipping products with quality problems. Neither was logical, but that's what they did, and it eventually led to disaster.They frittered all the trust and good will that they had earlier worked to establish, by then electing to coast on it. (BTW, Mike, parts were made to customer prints and spec.)
That was to illustrate that companies' behavior is a product of the attitudes and thinking prevalent within them. People in business are not immune to irrationality and poor judgment. I don't know how many times I said something didn't make sense, only to be told not to worry about it.

I've been in the position of running things myself, and can say I've also made obvious mistakes that others could see, dismissed advice that would have saved me headaches if I'd followed it, and had my share of D'OH! moments.
The lesson that has served me best is to really listen to input, without consideration of the position of the person giving it. My father has often said that he learned more from his employees than he ever taught them. Once I took that to heart, my job got easier and my decisions better.
 

ajuk

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I guess I will be the one to say for the millionth time on the Internet that they are totally different emulsions with different imaging characteristics, not just different-ISO versions of an otherwise identical film.

If the latter was the case, the two separate films would never have existed in the first place. It would have just been one Tri-X Pan.

Sorry I didn't sort of think that might be the case a quick Google seems to show it's more for studio work, so I would have thought the LF versions sales would have held up, no?
 

Tom Kershaw

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If the Kodak information is taken straightforwardly, then it suggests photographers' using TXP are keen on working in large format. Which is interesting in and of itself, as to the extent of market size, split between 35mm, medium format, and 4x5" +.

Tom
 
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Whilst I am sometimes one of the first to point out spelling and grammar mistakes, it is always done light heartedly.

In this case DR5 is making a serious point which is his opinion on the matter of stopping TXP production. The incorrect use of short sided, surly and and allot does not subtract from the point he is making.


Steve.

Well said.
 
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dr5chrome

dr5chrome

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Not good news.

Word from DPP today that the order placed for TXP roll film, [250 rolls] was cut by 1/3 ! :mad:


For this weekend, I've decided to resort to 35mm and Tri-X 400. It will be sufficient for this project. After that, I don't know. I'll figure something out. I absolutely hate Tmax with a passion, so it won't be that. I am not terribly fond of Tri-X 400, but it may be the lesser evil. I do plan to do more tests with HP5; it's never been my favorite, but maybe I can find a way to like it more. The biggest pain factor is that whatever I go to will have to be 120. I resent that.

I just can't believe that there is no other 220 B&W option. Unbelievable.
 

Cheryl Jacobs

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Word from DPP today that the order placed for TXP roll film, [250 rolls] was cut by 1/3 ! :mad:

Ugh. That's not good news.

Sorry for not replying earlier regarding the order. I was out in Malibu teaching a workshop, and my laptop decided to die. When it rains, it pours.
 
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