Controling Sepia toning.... how?

[RalphLambrecht]

Does anyone know what was the predominant method used in 30s and 40s when sepia toning was very popular? Of course these prints are older so there might been bleaching by sunlight or just plain aging, but they seem to have much lighter color and less red than what I'm getting...

AFAIK, both direct and indirect sulfide toning were used during that timeframe. Thiourea is a fairly new method trying to limit the odor problem associated with sulfur-based toners. One often finds references to 'liver of sulfur' in older recipes. 'Liver of sulfur' or 'sulfured potash' is a poorly-defined mixture of potassium sulfide or potassium polysulfide.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I will agree to disagree. When toning, care will obviously have to be taken to make sure the print is still archival.

If you dilute the bleach and bleach only for a short period of time, the re-development phase is still the same. The importance of fully re-developing the silver-halides into a stable form is equally important whether you're fully bleaching the print, or if you're only partially bleaching. That, to me, is a constant. I always re-develop the print until I can see no further change, and then leave it in for a bit more. Then I wash carefully, and I might do the process over again. Or I might not. Or I might use selenium toner, gold toner, or so on...

I think either way will work just fine, as long as proper care is taken.

Have fun! (It is a lot of fun)

Well, that is not my experience. I find the one-step method much easier than dealing with the bleach and redeveloper for the following reasons:

Residual silver halide, left behind by poor fixing, will cause staining with sulfide toners. Furthermore, residual thiosulfate, left behind by poor washing, can also cause staining and even highlight loss with sulfide toners. To avoid staining from residual silver halide or thiosulfate, it is, therefore, essential that FB prints are fully fixed and adequately washed in preparation for, or anticipation of, sulfide toning. For direct sulfide toning, a preceding 30-minute wash is sufficient. The bleaching process, required for indirect sulfide toning, calls for a complete 60-minute wash prior to bleaching. Otherwise, residual fixer will dissolve bleached highlights before the toner has a chance to ‘redevelop’ them. Likewise, a brief rinse after bleaching is highly recommended, because the interaction between bleach and toner may also cause staining. Washing minimizes the risk of unwanted chemical interactions between fixer, bleach, and toner. Indirect toning, after bleaching, must be carried out to completion to ensure full conversion of silver halides into image forming silver. Otherwise, some residual silver halide will be left behind, since the toner was not able to ‘redevelop’ the bleached image entirely. This is rare, because indirect toning is completed within a few minutes, but if residual silver halide is left behind by incomplete toning, the print will eventually show staining and degenerate, similarly to an incompletely fixed print.

I also find the results of direct sulfide toning much more visually pleasing, but that's, of course, a matter of taste. As you said, there is more than one way to skin a cat, and one has to find out what works best for oneself. One advantage of properly executed indirect sulfide toning is that it is the most archival toning process known to man, direct sulfide toning being a close second and selenium toning being a distant third.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Thomas

Properly executed processes should work fine, but some processes are easier to execute properly than others. How do you know that the print is fully redeveloped after bleaching?

 

[brian steinberger]

I've always wondered, any difference between thiocarbamide and sulfide sepia toners besides smell? I've always just used the thio sepia toners so I could work without the odor. I'm assuming they both offer the same level of protection, but how about differences in tone?

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I've always wondered, any difference between thiocarbamide and sulfide sepia toners besides smell? ... I'm assuming they both offer the same level of protection ...

Do they? I have not yet seen a test comparison.

 

[Philippe Grunchec]

Does someone know how Michael Kenna gets his so subtle tones? I met him very recently... but did not dare to ask!

 

[brian steinberger]

Does someone know how Michael Kenna gets his so subtle tones? I met him very recently... but did not dare to ask!

I've heard it's from very lightly sepia toning MGIV. I can't confirm this. I hope someone can. I too am very interested in knowing this.

 

[nworth]

I've always wondered, any difference between thiocarbamide and sulfide sepia toners besides smell? I've always just used the thio sepia toners so I could work without the odor. I'm assuming they both offer the same level of protection, but how about differences in tone?

I've only experimented a little in this area, but there seems to be a considerable difference, The short story is that thiocarbamide seems a bit more delicate in most cases. But there is also quite a variety of thiocarbamide redevelopers, unlike sulfide. A good example is Defender 6-T (Varigam toner), which lets you choose between three bleaches and three toners, each combination giving a different result. (My brief experience were that all combinations were different, some very different but some quite close to one another.) There are some good examples of thiocarbamide toning along with comparisons to sulfide toning in Rudman's book, if you can find it.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Thomas

Properly executed processes should work fine, but some processes are easier to execute properly than others. How do you know that the print is fully redeveloped after bleaching?

My unscientific way of knowing is that after the re-development doesn't show any more change, usually after about 30 seconds (with the toner I use, Moersch MT-3). I develop for a full minute, just to be safe.

http://www.moersch-photochemie.de/content/artikel/anleitungen/113

- Thomas

 

[brian steinberger]

I've only experimented a little in this area, but there seems to be a considerable difference, The short story is that thiocarbamide seems a bit more delicate in most cases. But there is also quite a variety of thiocarbamide redevelopers, unlike sulfide. A good example is Defender 6-T (Varigam toner), which lets you choose between three bleaches and three toners, each combination giving a different result. (My brief experience were that all combinations were different, some very different but some quite close to one another.) There are some good examples of thiocarbamide toning along with comparisons to sulfide toning in Rudman's book, if you can find it.

Yes, I do have Tim's book, great book. I have tried a sulfide sepia once, but it was a few years ago, and it smelled and since then I've just used thio toners. I would like to think I'm not missing anything not using sulfide sepia toners, but sometimes I wonder. Both thio and sulfide put off the same amount of gas that will fog papers and film correct? It's just that one smells and the other doesn't.

 

[pentaxuser]

Both thio and sulfide put off the same amount of gas that will fog papers and film correct? It's just that one smells and the other doesn't.

Opinions seem to differ on this. I've seen books that say thiocarbamide avoids the fogging problem. I have seen others reporting that if your paper is wrapped in its black bag and is inside its box then there is little chance of fogging even with sulphide.

This would seem to make sense. Sulphide has to be very penetrative to get through a tight fitting cardboard box and a light proof black bag which is folded underneath the pack and then placed so the only opening in the bag is compressed flat and held by the weight of the pack of paper.

All conjecture on my part as I have yet to use either toner. Paper loose in a paper safe and left in the open near toner is unlikely to be a good idea even with thiocarbamide or so I would have thought

pentaxuser

 

[Ian Grant]

I've always wondered, any difference between thiocarbamide and sulfide sepia toners besides smell? I've always just used the thio sepia toners so I could work without the odor. I'm assuming they both offer the same level of protection, but how about differences in tone?

There's big differences between them, thiourea toners are capable of a far greater degree of tones and warmth.

Some like direct toners with no bleach others indirect, I've used both extensively and both have their purposes but they are not equivalents results are not necessarily comparable.

Ian

 

[RalphLambrecht]

To avoid fogging altogether, I recommend storing film and paper outside of the darkroom or wherever else photochemical processes are conducted.

 

[brian steinberger]

How about big zip lock bags to store boxes of paper?

 

[RalphLambrecht]

My unscientific way of knowing is that after the re-development doesn't show any more change, usually after about 30 seconds (with the toner I use, Moersch MT-3). I develop for a full minute, just to be safe. ...

Redeveloping for 30, 60, 120, 240 and 480s, followed by another bleach should show the difference in protection or how 'fully' the redevelopment really was.

 

[brian steinberger]

My unscientific way of knowing is that after the re-development doesn't show any more change, usually after about 30 seconds (with the toner I use, Moersch MT-3). I develop for a full minute, just to be safe.

- Thomas

I used to re-develop for one minute, but recently changed to 2 minutes just to be on the safe side.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Does someone know how Michael Kenna gets his so subtle tones? I met him very recently... but did not dare to ask!

I just send him an email to ask him.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I used to re-develop for one minute, but recently changed to 2 minutes just to be on the safe side.

Not a bad idea, because any not redeveloped silver is subject to fading. I wonder how many people pull indirect toned prints too early to achieve a certain tone, not knowing what that will eventually do to the print.

 

[tkamiya]

Ralph,

If I bleach it incompletely or redevelop it half way in bleach/redevelop sepia toner... then follow it up with selenium toner, that will convert all silver to more stable form, correct??

 

[tkamiya]

Wow! 5 pages!

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Ralph,

If I bleach it incompletely or redevelop it half way in bleach/redevelop sepia toner... then follow it up with selenium toner, that will convert all silver to more stable form, correct??

Definitely not. Selenium toners contain significant amounts of thiosulfate (fixer), which will remove the bleached and 'undeveloped' image silver, washing out delicate highlights. This is why selenium toned prints require a full wash prior to indirect sulfide toning.

 

[Marco B]

Bleach-redevelopment sepia toning is meant to be taken to completion. If you want partial toning you should use one of the direct toners: brown toner, polysulfide toner, selenium toner.

This is a mistake.

Only the redevelopment step in the second bath (thiourea of sulphide) needs to be taken to completion, not the bleaching. Bleaching can be done partially (and hence the toning will be partially). You can bleach as long as you want, either very short (a few seconds), or very long (until all black image silver is converted to light yellow colored silverhalide and silverferricyanide).

However, after any bleach step, the redevelopment needs to be taken to completion. So leave it in the redeveloper as long as is needed.

Thomas

Properly executed processes should work fine, but some processes are easier to execute properly than others. How do you know that the print is fully redeveloped after bleaching?

As Thomas writes, eyeballing the process and print while in the redeveloper, and than giving some extra time, is usually good enough. You can be overly suspicious. I always fix the print afterwards as an extra precaution, but in actuality have never seen visible changes to bleach / redeveloped prints in the fixing bath using this method, indicating the moment the redevelopment is finished, can be quite accurately judged.

I tried sepia toning for the first time today. Paper was Ilford MGIV FB and toner was Photographers' Formulary 221.
...
The result is.... the print is just as dark as the original and it's really brown/red. It's not the subtle kind of sepia.... it screams out SEPIA! It also looks like I lost contrast a bit. Overall, it's not pleasing at all.

Personally, I have never been much fond of complete sepia tonings, except in a few rare cases where it does work in combination with a certain image and / or paper. Most of the time, I partially bleach the print.

The instruction says bleach for 1 min and redevelop for 1 min so that's what I did.

Again, these are bad instructions. Bleach for as long as you want to get the aesthetics you desire, and always leave the print in the redeveloper as long as it needs to be fully redeveloped.

Here are two examples of a fully and partially bleached & toned print. The first is fully toned and is Agfa MCC Glossy fibre, the second is partially bleached and Kentmere Fineprint VC Glossy paper.

 

[tkamiya]

Ralph,

Thank you for your correction (in pointing out the loss of highlights). How about then.... bleach it partially and redevelop it FULLY in Sepia, then follow it up with Selenium? That way, whatever the portion of silver that got bleached get toned in sepia, and the portion that wasn't bleached will be selenium toned. At no step there will be un-toned and undeveloped silver.

PS. Brown direct toner is on order...

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Redeveloping for 30, 60, 120, 240 and 480s, followed by another bleach should show the difference in protection or how 'fully' the redevelopment really was.

If I see a change at 30s still, I mix fresh toner. It shouldn't take longer than 30s to fully re-develop the print according to Wolfgang. 60s sounds very safe to me.

 

[jovo]

If I see a change at 30s still, I mix fresh toner. .

Speaking of which, just what is the useful life of toner? I mix my own and store it in a dark glass bottle, then mix working solutions by adding 50 ml of "lye" to diluted toner at about 1 to 10. My only metric has been that it either tones or it doesn't (using test strips), but I'm never sure ahead of time. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?