Contrast filters and midtones

MattKing said:

You can achieve an absolutely full black with just the 00 filter. Its just that the print will be really blah

Click to expand...

It is a worthwhile exercise to make a print using just 00 filtration with MGIV paper. The print will have these clouds in the midtone sections of the image where there is no detail - it just disappears into that flat spot in the 00 HD curve and it is all a uniform grey. It will also be blah as it will be almost impossible to have both a white and a black point in the print.

Ilford fixed the flat spot problem in MGIV paper by the simple expedient of eliminating the 00 paper response. A 00 filter with MGV results in the 0/1 curve of MGIV. A good move on their part as the MGIV/00 characteristic curve was of no use.

Nicholas Lindan said:

Now that is more than just a little weird.

You wouldn't happen to be using an enlarger with a 'cold light' head? Some enlarger light sources wreak holy havoc with VC papers.

Click to expand...

Nicholas I’m sorry, I forgot those were two different negatives. I was trying to get one to have as much contrast as the other, and the two negatives looked so similar. I couldn’t figure out why I had more contrast in the one even though I used a 2.5. I have a diffusion enlarger.

MattKing said:

On the 2.5 vs. 5 question, how old are your filters.
The 5 filters in particular fade over time.

Click to expand...

They are still in the box and look unused to my eyes. See above... I was wrong about the comparison. Nevertheless, the negative for which I used the 5 filter did have blacks as deep on the print.

Nicholas Lindan said:

It is a worthwhile exercise to make a print using just 00 filtration with MGIV paper. The print will have these clouds in the midtone sections of the image where there is no detail - it just disappears into that flat spot in the 00 HD curve and it is all a uniform grey. It will also be blah as it will be almost impossible to have both a white and a black point in the print.

Click to expand...

I'd agree with the exercise, but I suggest doing it for another purpose.
You will be amazed how much of the final image comes from the 00 exposure.
If you then do a print with the necessary 5 filtration, you will be amazed at how little of the final image comes from it.

Nicholas Lindan said:

It is a worthwhile exercise to make a print using just 00 filtration with MGIV paper. The print will have these clouds in the midtone sections of the image where there is no detail - it just disappears into that flat spot in the 00 HD curve and it is all a uniform grey. It will also be blah as it will be almost impossible to have both a white and a black point in the print.

Ilford fixed the flat spot problem in MGIV paper by the simple expedient of eliminating the 00 paper response. A 00 filter with MGV results in the 0/1 curve of MGIV. A good move on their part as the MGIV/00 characteristic curve was of no use.

Click to expand...

MattKing said:

I'd agree with the exercise, but I suggest doing it for another purpose.
You will be amazed how much of the final image comes from the 00 exposure.
If you then do a print with the necessary 5 filtration, you will be amazed at how little of the final image comes from it.

Click to expand...

These are great suggestions. I am going to do it. I don't have Ilford paper, but I want to see what each of these filters does to the print when used alone.

I do think part of my problem is understanding, as someone else said, "You can't always get what you want."

Ariston said:

What is a little weird is that I did a print with a 2.5 filter and one with a 5 filter, and the blacks seemed blacker in the print with the 2.5 filter. Otherwise, the tones in the prints were pretty similar. I have been doing all kinds of test strips and prints to see the different ways they react.

Click to expand...

Sounds like you aren't developing to completion.

grain elevator said:

Sounds like you aren't developing to completion.

Click to expand...

Spot on. Please see again my post #48. Your problem is likely less complicated than it appears. Your print doesn't look bad. Just needs fine tuning.
First time I noticed difference in development is when I used paper processor first time and compared results. To get tray processing to match black density of properly agitated paper processor print requires proper agitation.
Even if you wait 5 minutes without proper agitation there might not be full build up of density in shadows if developer is cold or there is no proper agitation.
Highlights and midtones look reasonable but deep blacks are not there if not developed to completion. Developer might need replenishment if it sat too long or developed to much paper resulting in bad consistency.

Regardless of what is done, getting separation in wheel wells will be tough with straight print without dodging/burning/masking while still keeping deep blacks.

Makin custom dodging or burning tools will certainly help. You can put the box on easel that will raise the surface to half distance to the lens.
Then focus at that magnification and trace dodging/burning tools for the details you want to modify (make the edges jagged). Dodging tool should be taped on end of a piece of wire.
For start, 32s or longer exposure is recommended. F stop timing calculation should be done to previsualize results. Then try adding or removing a 1 stop of exposure from these areas.

MattKing said:

On the 2.5 vs. 5 question, how old are your filters.
The 5 filters in particular fade over time.

Click to expand...

So do you mean,Matt, that per se a grade 5 fades faster over time than say a grade 2 i.e. if they all remain in the box unused then eventually all will fade but the 5 faster than the others or do you mean that for the same number of hours of use a 5 will fade faster? If this is the case can you say what the cause is?

Thanks

pentaxuser

The contemporary take on split-grade, using #00 and #5 filters, can confuse things when first trying to understand split-grade printing.

A possibly more understandable method is to use a green filter instead of the yellow #00 filter.

The use of a #00 filter makes it harder to separate the contributions of each emulsion as it lets through a substantial amount of blue light because it has to expose both the blue and green sensitive emulsions.

Using a deep green filter (either Wratten #61 or Rosco #389) will let you expose just the green sensitive emulsion. Using a green only exposure will not allow you to get to a deeper tone than a mid-grey with this exposure (in theory, in practice the green filter lets through enough blue that eventually you will get to a black tone with copious exposure).

The sequence of test strips would remain the same:

• High contrast prints/low contrast negatives: First use the #5 filter to find the shadow/black exposure, then the green filter to find the highlight/white exposure.
• Low contrast prints/high contrast negatives: First use the green filter to find the highlight/white exposure, then the #5 filter to find the shadow/black exposure

The resulting print is identical to a #00/#5 print but you may find you have a bit more control as the variables are better isolated from each other.

Unfortunately it isn't possible to expose just the blue sensitive emulsion by itself as the green sensitive emulsion is also sensitive to blue.

Rosco filters are a lot cheaper than wratten filters. A 20x24" sheet of #389 is $6.47 at B&H https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=rosco #389&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma. Although not touted for optical use I find them to be the equal of Wratten filters.

A great bargain is the Roscolux swatch book with some 100+ 3x6" filters, letting you really play around with filtration https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/45190-REG/Rosco_8815_Roscolux_Designer_Color_Selector.html

There are claims that split grade printing allows better dodging & burning. This is true if you are working in the shadows or highlights.

If, however, you are dodging and burning in the midtones and maintaining the same contrast then split grade can make your life hell: you have to do the same dodge/burn for each filter and also do the manipulations in precisely the same manner in each area of the image.

Nicholas Lindan said:

The contemporary take on split-grade, using #00 and #5 filters, can confuse things when first trying to understand split-grade printing.

A possibly more understandable method is to use a green filter instead of the yellow #00 filter.

The use of a #00 filter makes it harder to separate the contributions of each emulsion as it lets through a substantial amount of blue light because it has to expose both the blue and green sensitive emulsions.

Using a deep green filter (either Wratten #61 or Rosco #389) will let you expose just the green sensitive emulsion. Using a green only exposure will not allow you to get to a deeper tone than a mid-grey with this exposure (in theory, in practice the green filter lets through enough blue that eventually you will get to a black tone with copious exposure).

The sequence of test strips would remain the same:

• High contrast prints/low contrast negatives: First use the #5 filter to find the shadow/black exposure, then the green filter to find the highlight/white exposure.
• Low contrast prints/high contrast negatives: First use the green filter to find the highlight/white exposure, then the #5 filter to find the shadow/black exposure

The resulting print is identical to a #00/#5 print but you may find you have a bit more control as the variables are better isolated from each other.

Unfortunately it isn't possible to expose just the blue sensitive emulsion by itself as the green sensitive emulsion is also sensitive to blue.

Rosco filters are a lot cheaper than wratten filters. A 20x24" sheet of #389 is $6.47 at B&H https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=rosco #389&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma. Although not touted for optical use I find them to be the equal of Wratten filters.

A great bargain is the Roscolux swatch book with some 100+ 3x6" filters, letting you really play around with filtration https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/45190-REG/Rosco_8815_Roscolux_Designer_Color_Selector.html

* * *​

There are claims that split grade printing allows better dodging & burning. This is true if you are working in the shadows or highlights.

If, however, you are dodging and burning in the midtones and maintaining the same contrast then split grade can make your life hell: you have to do the same dodge/burn for each filter and also do the manipulations in precisely the same manner in each area of the image.

Click to expand...

How does the exposure time using a green filter compare with the yellow 00 filter? Is is harder to see the projected image with the green filter?

The papers layers are sensitive to either green or blue - an oversimplification in some cases, but good to know anyway. I split print or post-tweak using a deep 47 blue or 61 green glass filter over the lens. But if these seem to dark, you could try 58 green instead. Or alternately, I have true additive color enlargers where I can use either the green or blue channels independently. The will be better targeted and effective than anything yellow or magenta. But practice and a high degree of familiarity with specific papers is still going to be needed.

So yes, viewing your projected image with a deep green or blue filter in place is more difficult because almost no white light is getting through. The emulsion layer you're targeting will see it fast enough. That's what makes it more selective and efficient.
In my experience, a deep green filter achieves print density about four times faster than deep blue. However, sometimes you don't need the extremes, and just a tungsten conversion medium blue filter comes in handy. Experiment.

OP - you're getting tons of great suggestions here and that's the benefit of having all this information and advice immediately available online. But it can be overwhelming and you'll get plenty of opinions mixed in with the facts. And once you get on YouTube, sky's the limit.
My opinion is you're already pretty close with the print you've shown and just some small adjustments should help achieve what you want to get.
If you haven't already yet, I'd pick up one or two good books on darkroom printing/processes that have extensive examples of different techniques.
The Ansel Adams books (specifically The Print), are frequently recommended, but I'd look for something like David Vestal's "The Craft of Photography" or "The Art of Black and White Enlarging". These were written decades ago, but aside from the paper recommendations, all the information is still relevant today.
Good luck!

jimjm said:

...look for something like David Vestal's ..."The Art of Black and White Enlarging"...

Click to expand...

Good advice. And ignore everything written in this thread.

"Go not to the Elves for advice for they will say both 'yes' and 'no'" - J.R.R. Tolkien

Addendum on using green/#5 filters:

Using a green filter to make the highlight/white exposure means the highlight exposure will have far less impact on the shadow/black exposure.

It is only with very flat negatives, which will require a lot of green exposure, that there will be any effect on the shadows due to the green exposure.

For most negatives, then, using green/#5 filters will let you make a more accurate test-strip determination of the highlight and shadow exposures as the two exposures won't interact. It will matter less which test strip you make first.

Now, as an exercise, after finding the two exposures and making a satisfactory print you can then make a print using only the green exposure. This will give you an accurate picture of the contribution of the green/highlight exposure to the overall print. You can do the same making only the #5 exposure.

Good cooking is more about taste than recipes. There are all kinds of potential methods. "Practice makes perfect", as my Grandmother would say concerning homemade jam and jelly.

jimjm said:

OP - you're getting tons of great suggestions here and that's the benefit of having all this information and advice immediately available online. But it can be overwhelming and you'll get plenty of opinions mixed in with the facts. And once you get on YouTube, sky's the limit.
My opinion is you're already pretty close with the print you've shown and just some small adjustments should help achieve what you want to get.
If you haven't already yet, I'd pick up one or two good books on darkroom printing/processes that have extensive examples of different techniques.
The Ansel Adams books (specifically The Print), are frequently recommended, but I'd look for something like David Vestal's "The Craft of Photography" or "The Art of Black and White Enlarging". These were written decades ago, but aside from the paper recommendations, all the information is still relevant today.
Good luck!

Click to expand...

I have all three of Ansels books in the series, but I definitely need to re-read "The Print." I will also look into "The Art of Black and White Enlarging." Hopefully it is understandable enough for a beginner.

Ariston said:

I have all three of Ansels books in the series, but I definitely need to re-read "The Print." I will also look into "The Art of Black and White Enlarging." Hopefully it is understandable enough for a beginner.

Click to expand...

I find it useful because it doesn't start with any assumptions about your level of knowledge, and shows plenty of examples.

Ariston said:

I have all three of Ansels books in the series, but I definitely need to re-read "The Print." I will also look into "The Art of Black and White Enlarging." Hopefully it is understandable enough for a beginner.

Click to expand...

Not sure The Print covers split-grade printing. You might want to hunt down a copy of Ralph Lambrecht's Way Beyond Monochrome ($$).

Michael - Whenever possible I like to load up several different enlargers with their respective negatives in advance, in order to make my printing day itself as efficient as possible. This means several different strategies might be used on the same day - split printing with a blue-green cold light, M & Y using a conventional colorhead, B & G channels using an additive head - or mainly native "white" light as is from any of the above (never really white), with just potential tweaks after the main exposure. I don't even think about it anymore, just do it. It's all gotten second-nature; and generally a single test strip tells me all I need to know.

That's why I recommend getting very familiar with a single paper and developer before complicating the process with too many options. The first black and white print I ever made was a home run, clear out of the ballpark. The next hundred weren't. Now I expect at least one or two home runs every session. But all of this is contingent on marrying the learning curve of film exposure & development to the characteristics of the paper itself. A good versatile neg will almost print itself on modern VC paper.

Ariston said:

I am trying to learn how to use contrast filters and am having a difficult time. Both Grade 5 and Grade 00 filters seem to impact the mid-tones so much that I have a hard time adjusting the highlights and shadows without dramatically changing the rest.

I know that a big part of the benefit is being able to selectively burn the highlights or shadows, but if it is impacting the mid-tones this dramatically, is it really being selective at all?

Can someone tell me how I should expect contrast filters to affect the mid-tones?

Click to expand...

The bottom line is, if you can't get a decent print from a negative using only a single filter grade, then spilt filtration won't really help you. I rarely use it.

Ariston have you had a look at the Dave Butcher video? It is simple to follow and he does appear to produce at the end a picture which is better than his original pic at grade 2.5 The relevant stuff starts at about 7 mins. The rest is explaining about his equipment and set-up

Might be worth a try

pentaxuser

Split printing can really help when salvaging a less than ideal neg. So can unsharp masking. But life is simpler when the neg is properly exposed and developed to begin with, on the correct type of film for the subject luminance range. Start with the basics first.

pentaxuser said:

Ariston have you had a look at the Dave Butcher video? It is simple to follow and he does appear to produce at the end a picture which is better than his original pic at grade 2.5 The relevant stuff starts at about 7 mins. The rest is explaining about his equipment and set-up

Might be worth a try

pentaxuser

Click to expand...

Yes I did. It was very good, and there is no replacement for seeing actual examples, which he shows. Thank you.

If there are people in the shot, I'll often make a grade 5 only test strip with the faces and/or skin in it and find the time where grade 5 is just barely starting to touch the skin tones, then from there, work out a grade 00 time that gives me the skin tones that I want. For other subject types, I'll work out a grade 00 time that gives me the tones I want in the brightest part of the image, then use grade 5 to punch in the blacks and low shadows. Sometimes I'll use the grade 00 to set where I want the midtones (this is totally subjective), and then use the grade 5 to punch in the shadows and blacks up to the point just below where the midtones are being affected. The whole concept where split grade printing makes you lose control over the midtones is not true. Every grade filter is effectively an exposure time combination between grade 00 and grade 5. Any print that you can make with a straight filter can be made with a split grade print. This is why doing a print with a 2.5 filter is exactly the same as doing the same print with a grade 00 and grade 5, both with the same time as the 2.5 grade filter. Moving up and down the grade scale with the same exposure time is basically just changing the exposure ratio between grade 00 and grade 5.

If you really want to see what's going on with a print, pick a relatively easy to print negative and make a grade 2.5 print with the 2.5 filter. Work out your exposure time until you're happy with it. Now print that same negative with the same 2.5 filter time cut in half, but put in a grade 5 filter instead. Now make a print of the same negative and same 2.5 filter time cut in half, but instead put in a 00 filter. Compare the three prints side by side. It will become pretty obvious when they're side by side what is affected by what. That 2.5 filter print is effectively the 00 and 5 prints stacked on top of each other. I know it can be hard to believe, but once you see them side by side, it's pretty difficult to unsee them and makes it significantly easier to control exactly where you want the midtones to go. This is an exercise every darkroom printer should do.

ParkerSmithPhoto said:

The bottom line is, if you can't get a decent print from a negative using only a single filter grade, then spilt filtration won't really help you. I rarely use it.

Click to expand...

I have found this to be untrue many times.