Continuos agitating process - lack of acutance.

Rumbo181 · May 25, 2023

Hello everybody

I used to process film with Paterson tank, D-76 developer 1+1. Film was Kentmere 100 or sometimes Kentmere 400. As I was using a shared lab, in order to not depend on timetable I set a small laboratory at home, using Lab-Box as processing tank. First try was Kentmere 100 with Infosol 3 (1+9), continuous agitating for 4'15'' after Ilford instructions for subtracting 15% of developing time for this kind of process.

Results were a little bit disappointing, with a clear lack of acutance in comparison with the standard process with D-76. I changed to a more diluted solution (1+14), hence with longer times for developing -9'30''- on Kentmere 400. Some improvement over the previous batch but still no satisfactory.

So, I have three options:

1) Go back to Paterson/D-76, this is a sure shot, but no so convenient at all.
2) Try Lab-Box without continuous agitation, but I'm afraid that with this tank there will be more spillage and maybe it can ruin the module for loading the film.
3) Maybe the problem is in the developer. I would like to try another developer that suits better a continuous agitating process.

So, is Ilfosol 3 really adequate for this kind of process?, what other developer would you recommend for using with this tank? As far as I read, Rodinal is definely not suitable for this, but there has to be others.

Thanks in advance.

Angel Luis

Sirius Glass · May 25, 2023

Rumbo181 said:
Hello everybody

I used to process film with Paterson tank, D-76 developer 1+1. Film was Kentmere 100 or sometimes Kentmere 400. As I was using a shared lab, in order to not depend on timetable I set a small laboratory at home, using Lab-Box as processing tank. First try was Kentmere 100 with Infosol 3 (1+9), continuous agitating for 4'15'' after Ilford instructions for subtracting 15% of developing time for this kind of process.

Results were a little bit disappointing, with a clear lack of acutance in comparison with the standard process with D-76. I changed to a more diluted solution (1+14), hence with longer times for developing -9'30''- on Kentmere 400. Some improvement over the previous batch but still no satisfactory.

So, I have three options:

1) Go back to Paterson/D-76, this is a sure shot, but no so convenient at all.
2) Try Lab-Box without continuous agitation, but I'm afraid that with this tank there will be more spillage and maybe it can ruin the module for loading the film.
3) Maybe the problem is in the developer. I would like to try another developer that suits better a continuous agitating process.

So, is Ilfosol 3 really adequate for this kind of process?, what other developer would you recommend for using with this tank? As far as I read, Rodinal is definely not suitable for this, but there has to be others.

Thanks in advance.

Angel Luis

I suggest that you use XTOL stock strength or replenished XTOL and see if the results are better. I have found that Ilford films and hence possibly Kentmere need 15% more development for constant agitation.

pentaxuser · May 25, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
I suggest that you use XTOL stock strength or replenished XTOL and see if the results are better. I have found that Ilford films and hence possibly Kentmere need 15% more development for constant agitation.

Just so I have interpreted this correctly, Sirius, you have found the opposite of the usual consensus which seems to be that Ilford films need about 15% less development time with constant agitation rather than 15% more? If my interpretation of what you have said is correct, does that go for other makes of film or are they OK with 15% less development time when constantly agitated?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Sirius Glass · May 25, 2023

pentaxuser said:
Just so I have interpreted this correctly, Sirius, you have found the opposite of the usual consensus which seems to be that Ilford films need about 15% less development time with constant agitation rather than 15% more? If my interpretation of what you have said is correct, does that go for other makes of film or are they OK with 15% less development time when constantly agitated?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Yes, I have found that I needed to add 1 minute to the 20°C [68°F] time for Delta 3200, HP5+ and FP4+ all at box speed. The 15% development reduction has not worked of me with the Ilford films which I have used.

Rumbo181 · May 25, 2023

I would never had figure out that you should add time instead of substract. Anyway experience is experience.

I would try it next time. Surely I'll expose a test roll for this purpose. And I'll try XTOL as well.

Many thanks.

Steven Lee · May 25, 2023

@Rumbo181 Ilfosol 3 is the best acutance developer I've used, I prefer it to Rodinal because it doesn't lose any film speed. It is sharper than D76 in stock or 1+1 dilution, so I definitely would not recommend changing developers. That said, I never use rotary/continuous for B&W and I haven't tried Kentmere in it, I only shoot Delta 100 at that speed.

Rumbo181 · May 25, 2023

Steven Lee said:
@Rumbo181 Ilfosol 3 is the best acutance developer I've used, I prefer it to Rodinal because it doesn't lose any film speed. It is sharper than D76 in stock or 1+1 dilution, so I definitely would not recommend changing developers. That said, I never use rotary/continuous for B&W and I haven't tried Kentmere in it, I only shoot Delta 100 at that speed.

Yes, I know that Infosol has the fame of rendering sharp negatives, but the point is if it keeps true with continuous agitation process.

In the shared lab I use to go they proposed me to develop a roll with Ilfosol 3 in a standard process with a Paterson tank and compare the results with that of Lab-box. Scientific process, you know , but I think that is a right approach as well.

Other idea is trying the "extended play" process that @Sirius Glass proposes. Definitely I will try it, because it's based in experience and times from Ilfosol 3 instructions don't seem work.

I use to shot Kentmere because it seems that the other films are victims of the analog hype and have got their prices increased, anyway I was happy with it in the non-rotary process with D-76.

Thanks

Sirius Glass · May 25, 2023

Rumbo181 said:
Hello everybody

I used to process film with Paterson tank, D-76 developer 1+1. Film was Kentmere 100 or sometimes Kentmere 400. As I was using a shared lab, in order to not depend on timetable I set a small laboratory at home, using Lab-Box as processing tank. First try was Kentmere 100 with Infosol 3 (1+9), continuous agitating for 4'15'' after Ilford instructions for subtracting 15% of developing time for this kind of process.

Results were a little bit disappointing, with a clear lack of acutance in comparison with the standard process with D-76. I changed to a more diluted solution (1+14), hence with longer times for developing -9'30''- on Kentmere 400. Some improvement over the previous batch but still no satisfactory.

So, I have three options:

1) Go back to Paterson/D-76, this is a sure shot, but no so convenient at all.
2) Try Lab-Box without continuous agitation, but I'm afraid that with this tank there will be more spillage and maybe it can ruin the module for loading the film.
3) Maybe the problem is in the developer. I would like to try another developer that suits better a continuous agitating process.

So, is Ilfosol 3 really adequate for this kind of process?, what other developer would you recommend for using with this tank? As far as I read, Rodinal is definely not suitable for this, but there has to be others.

Thanks in advance.

Angel Luis

Oh by the way …

Welcome to ~~APUG~~ Photrio!!

pentaxuser · May 25, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
Yes, I have found that I needed to add 1 minute to the 20°C [68°F] time for Delta 3200, HP5+ and FP4+ all at box speed. The 15% development reduction has not worked of me with the Ilford films which I have used.

Thanks Sirius, from what you have replied I think that I can take it that of other films you use, be they Ilford or not, none require an increase in dev time for constant agitation? Is this correct?

This is fairly unique I think

pentaxuser

agentlossing · May 25, 2023

The Lab-Box works perfectly well with standard agitation! Just measure your chems to 490ml (500ml is listed some places but you're pushing it with spillage in my experience) and you're off to the races.

albada · May 25, 2023

agentlossing said:
The Lab-Box works perfectly well with standard agitation! Just measure your chems to 490ml (500ml is listed some places but you're pushing it with spillage in my experience) and you're off to the races.

@agentlossing , welcome to Photrio!

Mark

agentlossing · May 25, 2023

albada said:
@agentlossing , welcome to Photrio!

Mark

Thanks, Mark!

Rumbo181 · May 26, 2023

So, the way to proceed is to expose some test rolls, obviously all of them of the same kind:

1) To be processed with Infosol 3 and rotation and @Sirius Glass "extended play".
2) To be processed with Infosol 3 and normal agitation.
3) Maybe a third one to be processed with normal agitation, Infosol 3 and Paterson tank, but maybe this is not so important.

I also think that the propose to use XTOL is worth to consider, but I have to learn more about its logistic, whether it's available in Madrid or not and the process to mix the powder with water to get the developer.

Maybe I'll take the camera this weekend but they say it is going to rain the whole time

Fatih Ayoglu · May 26, 2023

Rumbo181 said:
So, the way to proceed is to expose some test rolls, obviously all of them of the same kind:

1) To be processed with Infosol 3 and rotation and @Sirius Glass "extended play".
2) To be processed with Infosol 3 and normal agitation.
3) Maybe a third one to be processed with normal agitation, Infosol 3 and Paterson tank, but maybe this is not so important.

I also think that the propose to use XTOL is worth to consider, but I have to learn more about its logistic, whether it's available in Madrid or not and the process to mix the powder with water to get the developer.

Maybe I'll take the camera this weekend but they say it is going to rain the whole time

You can check Adox XT3, same as XTOL. Can be ordered from Maco Germany, if not available in Spain.

Sirius Glass · May 26, 2023

pentaxuser said:
Thanks Sirius, from what you have replied I think that I can take it that of other films you use, be they Ilford or not, none require an increase in dev time for constant agitation? Is this correct?

This is fairly unique I think

pentaxuser

The other films follow the instructions for the developers.

Sirius Glass · May 26, 2023

agentlossing said:
The Lab-Box works perfectly well with standard agitation! Just measure your chems to 490ml (500ml is listed some places but you're pushing it with spillage in my experience) and you're off to the races.

Welcome to ~~APUG~~ Photrio!!

pentaxuser · May 26, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
The other films follow the instructions for the developers.

Thanks. Intriguing

pentaxuser

Rumbo181 · Jun 4, 2023

Last Friday I did the test of developing two rolls in the lab-box with normal agitation -option2.

I used Infosol3 1+14 as developer, I choose this dilution in order to be sure of getting times not too short, as I was advised against times shorter than 5 minutes regardless the developer. Infosol3 1+9 is dangerously close with Kentmere 100, one of my rolls.

Anyway normal agitation seems work perfectly.

I haven't test it yet, but it seems to be in the line suggested by @sirious glass, but what's the point of extended play with continuous agitation if you get the same results with normal agitation - and it's less tiring, by the way.

Craig · Jun 4, 2023

Your short development time might be a problem, the usual recommendation is to not have a developing time shorter than 5 min.

Sirius Glass · Jun 4, 2023

I have never had a lack of acutance from constant agitation.

Rumbo181 · Jun 7, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
I have never had a lack of acutance from constant agitation.

I guess that it is when you use "extended play" time for Ilford films. In my case, at the beginning, I was using not more but less time -about 15% less as recommended in the instructions, but it didn't work.

foc · Jun 7, 2023

All you need to know about Ilfosol 3 but.............. was afraid to ask.

https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/ILFOSOL-3-June2019.pdf

@Sirius Glass The Ilford recommendation is to reduce by around 15% for rotary tube processing (just sayin')

"Without using a pre-rinse, the given development times will need to be reduced by around 15% to compensate for the continuous agitation."

BTW, I have used Ilfosol 3 for many years (professionally) in spiral small tanks at 1+14 and found it to be a very good developer. I prefered the longer times with 1+14.

RalphLambrecht · Jun 7, 2023

Rumbo181 said:
Hello everybody

I used to process film with Paterson tank, D-76 developer 1+1. Film was Kentmere 100 or sometimes Kentmere 400. As I was using a shared lab, in order to not depend on timetable I set a small laboratory at home, using Lab-Box as processing tank. First try was Kentmere 100 with Infosol 3 (1+9), continuous agitating for 4'15'' after Ilford instructions for subtracting 15% of developing time for this kind of process.

Results were a little bit disappointing, with a clear lack of acutance in comparison with the standard process with D-76. I changed to a more diluted solution (1+14), hence with longer times for developing -9'30''- on Kentmere 400. Some improvement over the previous batch but still no satisfactory.

So, I have three options:

1) Go back to Paterson/D-76, this is a sure shot, but no so convenient at all.
2) Try Lab-Box without continuous agitation, but I'm afraid that with this tank there will be more spillage and maybe it can ruin the module for loading the film.
3) Maybe the problem is in the developer. I would like to try another developer that suits better a continuous agitating process.

So, is Ilfosol 3 really adequate for this kind of process?, what other developer would you recommend for using with this tank? As far as I read, Rodinal is definely not suitable for this, but there has to be others.

Thanks in advance.

Angel Luis

I use Rodinal in the Labbox wiyh inter mittent agitatio and it works well but, I'm not an accutance junky;so can't tell for sure if this is the method for You. How do you like the Labbox o far. I tok me a while to get used o it but prefer it for 35mm film now.

Rumbo181 · Jun 7, 2023

RalphLambrecht said:
I use Rodinal in the Labbox wiyh inter mittent agitatio and it works well but, I'm not an accutance junky;so can't tell for sure if this is the method for You. How do you like the Labbox o far. I tok me a while to get used o it but prefer it for 35mm film now.

Intermittent agitation -normal agitation- works well for me so far.

I don't shot too many rolls so Lab-box is till now really convenient and I'm happy with it. The key is how many rolls do you process simultaneously; if there is only one is convenient, but if you have many more maybe the use of a traditional -Paterson- tank is more advisable.

From the mechanic point of view, Lab-box worked fine for me from the very beginning.

Sirius Glass · Jun 7, 2023

Rumbo181 said:
I guess that it is when you use "extended play" time for Ilford films. In my case, at the beginning, I was using not more but less time -about 15% less as recommended in the instructions, but it didn't work.

foc said:
All you need to know about Ilfosol 3 but.............. was afraid to ask.

https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/ILFOSOL-3-June2019.pdf

@Sirius Glass The Ilford recommendation is to reduce by around 15% for rotary tube processing (just sayin')

"Without using a pre-rinse, the given development times will need to be reduced by around 15% to compensate for the continuous agitation."

BTW, I have used Ilfosol 3 for many years (professionally) in spiral small tanks at 1+14 and found it to be a very good developer. I prefered the longer times with 1+14.

Less time in a Jobo processor did not work for me with any Ilford film. I add one minute to the 20°C [68°F] time and that works. Some people may have to make a bigger adjustment depending on rotation rate.

Continuos agitating process - lack of acutance.

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