Contax G color pop - how is it technically done?

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pierods

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There is an undeniable color pop in photos taken with the Contax G, and that is pretty much independent from the film used.

It is also not "real", it kind of looks like the colors from 50s cartoons (I am obviously exaggerating, trying to describe what it feels like). There are photos from very outstanding cameras like the fujifilm Klasse W that have wonderful colors but are more "real".

How is it technically done? Lens coating? I suppose it was a deliberate choice from the lens makers.
 

loccdor

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Are you describing a specific lens from the Contax G?

This tends to be a quality of lenses with modern coatings and fewer glass to air surfaces to drop the contrast.
 

koraks

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There is an undeniable color pop in photos taken with the Contax G

No, there isn't. A camera doesn't impart anything color-wise to the film-recorded image.
The lens can have an influence in two ways:
  • More or less contrast (i.e. less or more flare)
  • Color cast
These factors you may notice especially when shooting slide film or when shooting color negative film in a tightly calibrated/constant workflow. If you're shooting CN and have it 'lab scanned' or scan it with (semi-)automatic color balancing, the effects mentioned above will be lost in the much bigger influence of the digitization and color balancing process.

Most likely you are referring to effects that are the combined result of psychological bias, aesthetic choices of photographers involved and the influence of the digitization & digital color balancing process.
 

Don_ih

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There is an undeniable color pop in photos taken with the Contax G, and that is pretty much independent from the film used.

Is this from your camera? I'd imagine a lot of online images are adjusted in a way that people will copy how others have their images adjusted - to join the club, so to speak.
 

250swb

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This is all about the Contax lenses have more micro contrast and making the image 'pop', they do it in B&W as well. It is however often mistaken for sharpness hence the Contax vs Leica debate of who makes the sharper lenses (Leica). The relationship between colour and contrast can be very crudely demonstrated if you have a colour image in Photoshop and increase the contrast, the colours appear more intense.
 

koraks

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more micro contrast

It is however often mistaken for sharpness
What is 'micro contrast', objectively speaking? And 'sharpness'?


The relationship between colour and contrast can be very crudely demonstrated if you have a colour image in Photoshop and increase the contrast, the colours become more intense.

OK, but is that about 'micro' contrast, then? Wouldn't overall contrast be something like 'macro contrast'?


Forgive me the pedantry, but I notice lots of threads like these revolving around terms like these that look scientific but are generally left undefined, and as a result, they always remain somewhat vague. It would be nice if we could unravel this a bit.
 

warden

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Forgive me the pedantry, but I notice lots of threads like these revolving around terms like these that look scientific but are generally left undefined, and as a result, they always remain somewhat vague. It would be nice if we could unravel this a bit.
It would be great to have a thread on the subject. Micro-contrast has been used to describe lens performance and film performance too, but it would be nice to have a thread with example images showing precisely the difference between contrast and micro-contrast, and how that relates to sharpness and/or color. I’ve never understood it, and couldn’t tell anyone what flavor of contrast or “sharpness” is on any of my images.
 

runswithsizzers

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Several internet discussions about the properties of certain lenses include terms like, "color-pop," "3-D pop," "pixie dust," etc. I suppose it is possible that there may be some property of optical lens design which has not yet been accurately described or precisely measured, but I am skeptical.

I always ask, if you are not able to describe what you are seeing, then please show some examples of what you are talking about. Unless the subject can be accurately described or clearly illustrated, discussion becomes pointless.
 

destroya

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I agree with the pop. a few years ago I used the same film and same focal length lenses on the same scenes, one with the contax G and the other with a nikon set up. I developed the film together in the same tank. when projected the slides from the contax were clearly different. Im not saying they were better, just myself and others could tell a difference. same goes for B&W slides and B&W negs. I now use my contax more than all my other 35mm cameras combined. the others are getting lonely.

so count me as another shooter who believes that the contax lenses do make a difference in the outcome.

john
 

250swb

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What is 'micro contrast', objectively speaking? And 'sharpness'?




OK, but is that about 'micro' contrast, then? Wouldn't overall contrast be something like 'macro contrast'?


Forgive me the pedantry, but I notice lots of threads like these revolving around terms like these that look scientific but are generally left undefined, and as a result, they always remain somewhat vague. It would be nice if we could unravel this a bit.

Contrast between 'things', on the edge of 'things', separation of colours, often helped in understanding by having used Contax G lenses. Sharpness is sharper than contrast although lenses can provide both. I don't think you are pedantic, you just look for ways to trip people up, it's nice to have hobby's. But if you are baffled Google something like 'lens micro contrast' and you'll find even the Ai bot understands it.
 

brbo

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And that is something (colour “pop”) that is a property of Contax/Zeiss G lenses or Contax/Zeiss lenses in general (modern Zeiss T* coatings)?
 

koraks

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Contrast between 'things', on the edge of 'things', separation of colours, often helped in understanding by having used Contax G lenses. Sharpness is sharper than contrast although lenses can provide both. I don't think you are pedantic, you just look for ways to trip people up, it's nice to have hobby's. But if you are baffled Google something like 'lens micro contrast' and you'll find even the Ai bot understands it.
My question was/is sincere and I feel it's not really answered if the answer involves "you'll have to use this lens in order to get it". Arguments relying on (quasi-)technical parameters are too often of a self-immunizing, tautological nature, which doesn't help at all. And yes, I'm baffled, as you would be if you would think a little harder about what you just wrote down, which in the end really doesn't say much at all.

If we strip the tautological bits off, what remains is something like:

"Contrast between things on the edge of things" as micro-contrast - which seems to come close to how resolving power is measured. I also don't want to conflate resolving power and sharpness, but the fact that these constructs are so close to each other does emphasize the need to disentangle them.

In an attempt to make things a little more concrete, I'm thinking along these lines:

Contrast is the difference in value (intensity, luminosity, density) between any two given points.
Micro contrast is the contrast between points in close proximity; this still leaves considerable leeway in what we would consider 'close'. Maybe in the context of 35mm film, it would be something on the sub-mm scale; perhaps something in the order of magnitude of 10um. By nature of that definition, it would essentially be the definition of resolving power, which, after all, is the ability of an optical system to distinguish between different values of luminosity/density/illumination in close proximity.
Macro contrast would be equivalent, but at a larger physical scale - across the entire frame or significant parts of it.
We could apply contrast to monochrome or color - ultimately it's luminosity or density in any given channel/wavelength.

Sharpness is a much more tricky concept since it seems to be a subjective impression that results from a combination of several things. This will include micro-contrast (as it determines resolving power), but also a set of more or less unrelated factors like granularity (or noise), non-linear modifications to the transfer function (e.g. the 'ringing' nature of unsharp masking), etc. I'm not sure if we'll ever get any further than establishing that it's subjective and complex, and that ultimately it involves but is not limited to aspects like resolving power.

If you move even further away from the realm of measurable, tangible parameters, we end up in the area where constructs like 'color pop' live, which ultimately have no definition that can sensibly linked to the performance of an optical system, at least without defining them in terms of observable parameters and operationalizing them. We may then have a fighting chance at making claims at whether a certain lens might offer more of it than any other.

What I see happening here, as in many places, is that we never really get to that point. My remark was a challenge open to all to see how far we might get on that route. And I made it in the full awareness that there's probably a limit to how far we can take it and before things just get very subjective and perhaps even personal. That's OK, but I feel it's still more useful to give it a try than to stick with the photographic end-all of the "you gotta see it in order to believe it."

PS: AI doesn't 'get' anything. That's why it's not useful to engage it in this case, since conceptual thinking is simply not part of its feature set.
 

250swb

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PS: AI doesn't 'get' anything. That's why it's not useful to engage it in this case, since conceptual thinking is simply not part of its feature set.

But it can gather colloquial responses from existing media and at least generate a yes or no starting point from which to answer the question. Along the lines of 'if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably a duck'.

So I believe that micro contrast already exists as a concept, it can be seen in lens design or film/developer acutance, and adjusting edge contrast up or down is something digital photographers employ when they apply 'Clarity' or 'Structure' (depending on their make of software). But I don't think there is a scale to measure it by, or at least a scale photographers need to use because it is a perception or feeling that there is more of it or less of it when looking at an image. This is how much of film photography works without needing an inquest to prove it, don't photographers already flatter the sitter in portraits by intentionally reducing edge contrast to smooth skin, or make a scene more dramatic and graphic by breaking out the Rodinal?
 

koraks

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But it can gather colloquial responses from existing media

Yes, which are problematic, because conceptually confused much of the time. Disentangling a plate of spaghetti rarely works by smashing it flat. You'd have to pick it apart; AI isn't very good at that.

So I believe that micro contrast already exists as a concept

Sure, it exists probably in a variety of ways, nuances or interpretations. That's why I asked; just so we get on the same page. I feel it's relevant to go in that direction because the question at hand is very specifically how a camera (I read: 'lens') affects this kind of characteristic. Working on the definition we seem to have on micro contrast, this would translate mostly into aspects like MTF and to an extent flare. That feels like a lot more solid ground than terms like 'pop'.
 

pentaxuser

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Several internet discussions about the properties of certain lenses include terms like, "color-pop," "3-D pop," "pixie dust," etc. I suppose it is possible that there may be some property of optical lens design which has not yet been accurately described or precisely measured, but I am skeptical.
Being sceptical is fine about "color pop" or "3D pop" but everyone knows that pixie dust works, don't they? 😎

pentaxuser
 

Kodachromeguy

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Aren't "Leica Glow", "sharp", and "micro-contrast" doo-doo terms bandied about by online photo dweebs? "My new lens isn't sharp enough. I compared it with some jpegs posted on Instagram by other people who don't know what they are doing." "I can really see the micro-contrast in these jpeg online Leica pictures." "My lens is not sharp, based on an unknown brand 400 film that I scanned on my flatbed scanner and then posted on Flickr." 🤮
 
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halfaman

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As a former user of a Contax G2 I agree that some lenses like 45 mmf/2 lens can have a certain "pop" wide open. It is contrasty but not a super sharp lens wide open, so the results have a marked contrast but they are also smooth. As you close the aperture you get plenty of sharpness and results are more "modern standard". The advantages of Contax G are more related with its size and operation (the smaller 35 mm camera with AF and interchangable lenses I know, silent shutter and film advance) than with the lenses, even all I tried were fantastic. You can get a similar output with other 1990's systems.

Below a very uninteresting photo as example with the 45 mm at f/11 or so. Portra 400 scanned with a Nikon Super Coolscan 8000 ED and Vuescan at 4000 dpi and downscaled to 700 dpi.

0002.jpg
 
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Ian C

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This discussion reminds me of a test I participated in about 1996. Helmut, Ron, and I each had 35 mm SLRs with normal lenses that we used often. Helmut was from Oranienburg and owned an Exakta with 58 mm f/2 Carl Zeiss Jenna Biotar. Ron had a Minolta Maxxum 7000 with 50 mm f/1.4 Minolta AF. I used a Nikon EL2 with 55mm f/1.2 AI Nikkor.

Helmut had long bragged that his Biotar lens was superior to our “junky Japanese lenses.” He was particularly adamant that it produces much better color than other lenses. I devised a test in which we all participated. This was done on a sunny afternoon in the late summer. I obtained a 12-exposure roll of Kodak Kodacolor 100. Helmut was a painter and had many of his 30” x 40” oil paintings on hand. He set one of his landscape paintings on up on his wooden deck. We chose several different targets. Each were shot at f/8 and the same shutter speed. None of the lenses had any filter attached.

Helmut engaged the first sprocket hole at the top, closed the back and with the lens cap on, advanced to frame 1, shot frames 1 through 4, disengaged the take-up spool, and rewound the film to leave the leader out of the cartridge. Then Ron loaded the film into his Minolta starting with 2nd sprocket hole at the top, advanced the film with the lens cap on to frame 5. He duplicated the shots on frames 5 through 8. The I repeated this with frames 9 through 12 in my Nikon. Each shooter focused as carefully as possible. This worked out nicely as none of the frames overlapped at the two transition points.

I submitted the film for commercial processing and ordered 3 prints of each frame so that each of us would have a full record of the test. The prints were all nicely rendered. The prints from the Nikon and Minolta were identical, displaying the same excellent resolution of detail and accurate color that closely matched the original scene. The grain of the weathered deck was well resolved as well.

Helmut’s photos were definitely more colorful. In particular, red, gold, orange, and yellow were exaggerated beyond what was present in the original scene. We also noticed that the fine detail captured with the Biotar was noticeably softer. In particular, the grain of the weathered deck was not resolved well at all.

Something about the Biotar produced exaggerated warm colors. It looked as though a warming filter had been used. Whether it was the composition of the glass (aging thorium-alloy glass?) or the characteristic of the antireflection coatings, I cannot say. Nonetheless, the effect was obvious. Whether that was the intention of the lens maker is unknown.
 

runswithsizzers

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For me, the question is not, "Do some lenses render color differently from others?" For example, I have noticed photos my Konica Hexanon AR lenses seem to have slightly brigher colors than photos from my Pentax SMC lenses.

The question, as asked in the OP is, "Why?" To that, I would add the question, "And does this property require inventing a new name to describe it?"

I have always assumed the different rendering of my Hexanon lenses is due to Konica's coatings. Coatings which preserve color contrast by preventing veiling flare. And because we already use the word "contrast" to describe this property of lenses, why not just say "contrast"? That is, can "color-pop" be simply and more accurately described as, "excellent color contrast" -- or is there more to it than that?
 
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