Considering first MF purchase - input appreciated

gus. · Mar 12, 2013

Holy cow! You guys are awesome!!! So much information. Well, I tried to process as much as I could and narrowed my thoughts down to this:

Pentax 67 - Better outdoors? Not modular.
RB67 - Fully modular, cheaper, and just as sharp?
RZ67 - Same as RB but with electronic shutter (better accuracy?), 'one-motion' frame to frame and I read its use is more intuitive than the Pentax?

Ultimately, I couldn't get past the Pentax not being modular. Also, after reading more about the RB/RZ I understood how awesome they are! Unlike my 600 shots/10% accuracy days with digital, film has taught me to be more precise with my shooting and it's really helped my success rate. That said, I do believe I would want the option of switching from, say, color to b/w mid shoot. Or even different films to narrow down a favorite? Oh, and not losing any chemistry with my subject having to reload film if I have a few backs. Also, the camera will live on a tripod 95% of the time so the weight/size is no prob.

I was looking to spend around $600 - $800 and there are TONS of options in that range. I decided I liked the few extras of the RZ over the RB and you'll all be excited to hear that I'm currently the high bidder on an RZ Pro II with a 110/2.8! Wish me luck gents!

Wish I could buy you all a beer! ;D

revdocjim · Mar 12, 2013

I'm not sure why folks keep talking about the Hassy when the OP is clearly talking about 6x7... Of course the Hassy is hard to beat for what it does. But it doesn't do 6x7; plain and simple.
Each camera has its strengths and weaknesses and most of them have been covered already
RB and RZ are great for studio work; really hard to beat, but bulkier and heavier than most for hand held work.
GS-1 is great as a carrying camera, as far as SLRs are concerned. Light, and very ergonomically pleasing with the speed grip and AE finder attached. Leaf shutters are a big plus too.
Pentax 6x7 and 67 are about half way in between the two mentioned above. Easier to hand hold than Mamiya, but not as easy as the GS-1 and no leaf shutters except a couple specialty lenses. The broom handle grip and focus levers make it better for hand held, but not as sweet as the GS-1.

When I owned all three I tended to use the RB in studio, the GS-1 for hand held work and the Pentax for landscapes.

But the fact is that there are plenty of photographers who use each one of these cameras in the areas they supposedly don't excel and still get fantastic results. It just takes commitment and skill. All three are extremely capable cameras.

If you want to delve into the world of range finders there are a few more options, most of which have some limitations but some great advantages too. Fuji has a long history of great rangefinders in 6x7. The so called "Texas Leicas" are optically very good, but all but the earliest models have fixed lenses. And none have built in meters. The newer GF670 offers both 6x6 and 6x7, is extremely compact (its a folder!) and has a lens that is second to none. But once again... fixed lens. The GF670W is wider but isn't a folder. The Mamiya 7 is one of the few modern 6x7 range finders that has exchangeable lenses. Unfortunately it isn't quite as compact as the Mamiya 6 (6x6) since the lens doesn't collapse and the lens specific external view finders can be bothersome.

In the end I think you could be happy with any of these 6x7 cameras as long as you aren't too concerned about "greener grass" issues. If you go for the Pentax just make sure you get one that has MLU. It's very helpful and only the earliest 6x7 doesn't have it.

gus. · Mar 12, 2013

ac12 said:
Define your budget.
You said you print your own. What size enlarger do you have? If you have a 6x6 enlarger, are you willing to replace it with a 6x7 enlarger?

Boy, that's a good question. What defines whether the enlarger is 6x6 or 6x7? Crap, I'm worried now, haha. I've done 120 on it. Does the head define how much it can light?

I have an Omega B5. This guy,

MattKing · Mar 13, 2013

gus. said:
Boy, that's a good question. What defines whether the enlarger is 6x6 or 6x7? Crap, I'm worried now, haha. I've done 120 on it. Does the head define how much it can light?

I have an Omega B5. This guy,

No problem - that enlarger will handle up to 4" x 5".

Some enlargers are big enough for 6 x 6, but not 6 x 7. You definitely don't have that problem.

gus. · Mar 13, 2013

Is it a matter of height or the enlarger head that defines how large it can print?

MattKing · Mar 13, 2013

gus. said:
Is it a matter of height or the enlarger head that defines how large it can print?

It is the size of the light source and the size of the space for the negative holders that determines what size of negative can be used in it.

You generally need to purchase the right size negative holder, a suitable lens and the right lens mount for that lens.

EDIT - I just realized I was wrong when I said you could enlarge up to 4" x 5" with that enlarger. The maximum size is actually 6 x 9 cm with a B5 - still large enough to include 6 x 7.

Here are links to KHB's pages for the Omega B5/B6: http://www.khbphotografix.com/omega/Discontinued/B5.htm

and the somewhat related Omega B7: http://www.khbphotografix.com/omega/Discontinued/B7.htm

as a comprehensive resource, KHB is invaluable, as is Harry Taylor's site Classic Enlargers: http://www.classic-enlargers.com/

fotch · Mar 13, 2013

Hey Gus, welcome to APUG and GAS.

gus. · Mar 13, 2013

I appreciate it! No GAS just yet but give me a few weeks! Haha.

gus. · Mar 13, 2013

MattKing said:
Here are links to KHB's pages for the Omega B5/B6: http://www.khbphotografix.com/omega/Discontinued/B5.htm

and the somewhat related Omega B7: http://www.khbphotografix.com/omega/Discontinued/B7.htm

as a comprehensive resource, KHB is invaluable, as is Harry Taylor's site Classic Enlargers: http://www.classic-enlargers.com/

Woah! When I first bought my B5 I looked and looked for relative information with little luck. Thank you!

Alan Gales · Mar 13, 2013

I have owned quite a few medium format cameras. My Hasselblad 500cm is my favorite over all. I have a bad back and the Blad is not hard on me to carry around.

I used to have a Mamiya RZ67. It was my favorite medium format camera for portraiture. It's fantastic as a studio camera on a tripod. I eventually sold the kit to help fund a 4x5.

If you buy the RZ make sure you get the 110mm. It's a real gem!

John Wiegerink · Mar 13, 2013

If you are "locked" in on 6x7 then you have your choices narrowed a bit. I have never used a Mamiya RZ67, but I did own a very nice RB67 with three lenses for about a year and a half. For me it was only a tripod camera. Now, if you are of a large body size you might be happy strapping it around your neck, but not me. I did love the rotating back and it being 6x7, but I never got used to the separate cocking and film advance. The optics were also very, very good. I already had a Hasselblad 500C so the RB67 went up for sale. Like I said before, I have and use the Pentax 67 the most of all my cameras, but if I were to start all over and wanted a more portable and modular 6x7 there would only be one choice. That choice would be the Bronica GS-1 with the speed-power grip added. You would have everything you seem to be asking for in one much smaller package than the RZ67. I think the RB67 and RZ67 are really fine cameras, but I just don't find them that portable. If I'm going to lug something that big up a hill I'll take my 4x5 field camera with three lenses, 4 film holders and a 120 6x7 roll back and have the same weight and a much larger negative to boot.

tron_ · Mar 13, 2013

I may be a little late to this thread but I think it's important to decide in this order (imo):

1. Type of camera you feel most comfortable with since photography is as much about you as it is about the subject. Do you want an SLR-esque camera? A "classic" medium format camera with a waist level finder? TLR?

2. What film format you "see" best in. As people have mentioned this can be 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7, 6x9, etc. Personally I prefer 6x7 because it's much larger than the 6x4.5 negatives and is an "ideal crop" format which makes it much easier to find frames.

3. Budget. Self explanatory

FWIW I have a Mamiya RZ67 with 110 2.8 and 50 4.5 lenses. It is a GREAT camera and really is not as heavy as people say. I've been using it nonstop for almost a year and weight was never a concern with me. It is 95% hand held except for night shots (where a tripod would be almost mandatory anyways). It's no featherweight, but I feel people play up its weight too much.

The camera is extremely modular which is very nice. If you break a back, body, lens, etc you can hop online and find them relatively easy. This is one reason why I did not go with the Bronica GS-1, apparently parts are harder to find for it. I almost went with a Bronica SQ-Ai but decided I wanted the 6x7 format instead.

It's great to hear you're getting into medium format photography hopefully this reply wasn't too tedious to read!

ac12 · Mar 13, 2013

Gus
It is the design and construction of the head. If the head is not large enough it physically cannot cover the larger negative. Example you cannot print anything larger than 6x6 in a B22 enlarger, the head is not big enough to cover a larger negatives. With the larger head of a D2, you can print anything up to 4x5 inches.

I found the info on your enlarger. I thought the B-series maxed out at 6x6, but according to the KBH site, your B5 will handle 2-1/4x3-1/4 or 6x9.
You just need the appropriate negative carrier, lens mount and lens. That could be difficult based on how old your enlarger is, but you might get lucky.
Start looking.

gus. · Mar 13, 2013

tron_ said:
2. What film format you "see" best in. As people have mentioned this can be 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7, 6x9, etc. Personally I prefer 6x7 because it's much larger than the 6x4.5 negatives and is an "ideal crop" format which makes it much easier to find frames.

It's odd but I had never given this much thought. Makes total sense. Shoot how you 'see' right?

tron_ said:
FWIW I have a Mamiya RZ67 with 110 2.8 and 50 4.5 lenses. It is a GREAT camera and really is not as heavy as people say. I've been using it nonstop for almost a year and weight was never a concern with me. It is 95% hand held except for night shots (where a tripod would be almost mandatory anyways). It's no featherweight, but I feel people play up its weight too much.

The camera is extremely modular which is very nice. If you break a back, body, lens, etc you can hop online and find them relatively easy. This is one reason why I did not go with the Bronica GS-1, apparently parts are harder to find for it. I almost went with a Bronica SQ-Ai but decided I wanted the 6x7 format instead.

It's great to hear you're getting into medium format photography hopefully this reply wasn't too tedious to read!

Yeah, I'm feeling pretty good about my decision to go RZ. Hope I win the auction I'm bidding on! Thanks Tron!

gus. · Mar 13, 2013

ac12 said:
Gus
It is the design and construction of the head. If the head is not large enough it physically cannot cover the larger negative. Example you cannot print anything larger than 6x6 in a B22 enlarger, the head is not big enough to cover a larger negatives. With the larger head of a D2, you can print anything up to 4x5 inches.

I found the info on your enlarger. I thought the B-series maxed out at 6x6, but according to the KBH site, your B5 will handle 2-1/4x3-1/4 or 6x9.
You just need the appropriate negative carrier, lens mount and lens. That could be difficult based on how old your enlarger is, but you might get lucky.
Start looking.

That's a good point. I need to start looking for a 6x7 carrier. If my enlarger is too old then only the bulb would suffer, no? (as far as printing performance, barring enlarger lens clarity) A new one would get it back to (hopefully) original light output?

cepwin · Mar 13, 2013

I just got the RB67 pro-s and so far I love it. I got mine with a lens and the 120 back from KeH for around $300 (Bargain rating but it looks in great shape) There is a bit of a learning curve but the image quality is incredible. Depending on what you're looking for an RZ maybe a better fit. There's a video on youtube comparing the models (this person decided on the RZ.) The RB is entirely mechanical, the RZ is more modern (metering, hot shoe, etc) but as such requires a battery to operate.

Kyon Thinh · Mar 13, 2013

I got RZ67 as my first MF, dont have anything to complain.

MattKing · Mar 13, 2013

gus. said:
That's a good point. I need to start looking for a 6x7 carrier. If my enlarger is too old then only the bulb would suffer, no? (as far as printing performance, barring enlarger lens clarity) A new one would get it back to (hopefully) original light output?

If I understand it correctly, your enlarger is designed to be an autofocus model.

As such, you may need to obtain a lens that covers 6x7 and an autofocus track to go with that lens.

It may be that the B5 will work well without autofocus - I do not know.

In addition, there are supplementary condensers designed to maximize the efficiency of the light source for different formats. They would be great to have, but as long as the condenser(s) you have are able to cover the largest size of negative you are working with, things should be fine.

gus. · Mar 13, 2013

cepwin said:
I just got the RB67 pro-s and so far I love it. I got mine with a lens and the 120 back from KeH for around $300 (Bargain rating but it looks in great shape) There is a bit of a learning curve but the image quality is incredible. Depending on what you're looking for an RZ maybe a better fit. There's a video on youtube comparing the models (this person decided on the RZ.) The RB is entirely mechanical, the RZ is more modern (metering, hot shoe, etc) but as such requires a battery to operate.

Boy, my bid's at $600 and change for an RZ with a 110/2.8 and two 120 backs. I went RZ for the few extra digital controls over the RB. Full functionality sounds nice but a few bells and whistles wouldn't hurt! I'll keep an extra battery handy.

gus. · Mar 13, 2013

MattKing said:
In addition, there are supplementary condensers designed to maximize the efficiency of the light source for different formats. They would be great to have, but as long as the condenser(s) you have are able to cover the largest size of negative you are working with, things should be fine.

Interesting. Thanks Matt.

ac12 · Mar 13, 2013

@Gus
I am guessing that because of the age of the B5, you might have trouble finding a 6x7 carrier.
KBH and Classic Enlargers are sources to check out.

If the bulb is old and dim, change it and you will be back to the higher light level.
I normally keep at least 1 spare on hand. But these days, you can't just drop down to your local camera shop for a bulb, so I keep 2 or 3 spares on hand. My last order was for 4 bulbs, so I will have 3 spares.
- Check is the inside of the light head. If the white paint has yellowed, you are loosing light. Clean and repaint so it is white again and you will get more light.
- Clean the condenser lenses. I just cleaned the mirror on my Durst, there was a layer of dust on it, which also means the inside of the condenser head probably has a coat of light absorbing dust on it...more cleaning.

About the autofocus that Matt mentioned above. Can you manually focus the lens on your enlarger? I recall that with the autofocus D2 that I used in high school, we could still focus the lens manually, so we could totally override the autofocus. The reason is, if you do not have the autofocus cam for the longer lens (for 6x7), you will have to manually focus.

gus. · Mar 15, 2013

What a bummer. I was bidding on a BEAUTIFUL RZ at what seemed a reasonable price. The bid was at $610 and to be cautious I placed my max bid at $651. I refreshed just seconds before it finished and I was still winning the auction at $610 -- up to the last second -- only to be told I had LOST the auction to another bidder at $661! What the heck, haha. I don't understand. Did the other guy place his bid at the last second? If he had placed a max bid himself then my original $610 would have risen, no? Gah! Back to the search.

tkamiya · Mar 15, 2013

Some people run software to do just that. At the very end, they beat you so you can't beat him back.

MattKing · Mar 15, 2013

tkamiya said:
Some people run software to do just that. At the very end, they beat you so you can't beat him back.

I use "sniping" software for all my bids - I'm sure the winning bidder used some of his/her own.

There are lots of competing sources - the one I use is eSnipe.

Truzi · Mar 16, 2013

I use gixen for sniping. It's web-based and free.

However, getting the last bid in doesn't guarantee you will win. If an earlier bid had an higher maximum than your snipe, that will win regardless of when you submit your bid.

The best thing about sniping is avoiding the bidding wars. When a bunch of people are manually submitting bids over the course of a few days, the prices can get quite out of hand. People will go over their "maximum" because it becomes so tempting to be the winner.

Considering first MF purchase - input appreciated

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