Considering First Leica: IIIc or g - Thoughts?

[Lamar]

If I were going to get Leica glass I would like a Summitar 50mm f/2 collapsible but most I see are in an optically questionable condition and quite expensive even so. I read the front element glass is soft and it's hard to find a good one. True? Is the f/3.5 going to be better? Am I just as good with an Industar at that point?

 

[02Pilot]

If I were going to get Leica glass I would like a Summitar 50mm f/2 collapsible but most I see are in an optically questionable condition and quite expensive even so. I read the front element glass is soft and it's hard to find a good one. True? Is the f/3.5 going to be better? Am I just as good with an Industar at that point?

I have a Summitar, recently purchased, that I love, but getting a good one requires either luck or money. There are other options that should not be discounted. What is most important to you: speed, size, cost, a particular optical quality, something else? The Summitar is not particularly compact when collapsed, while an Elmar or Industar collapsible makes the whole rig tiny and easily fitted in a pocket. If you feel you need f/2 or faster, the Jupiter-8 has got to be the best bang for the buck out there - I've had lovely results with mine, both color and B&W. Other manufacturers, notably Canon, produced LTM lenses, many of which are excellent - the Canon 50/1.8 has a particularly good reputation and is quite common.

Determine your priorities first, then let them help you decide.

 

[flavio81]

Have you considered a Canon rangefinder instead? It will be very reliable and far nicer than the Zorkis (I had a Zorki 4, as well as a Fed 3, did not like them.)

 

[cuthbert]

If I were going to get Leica glass I would like a Summitar 50mm f/2 collapsible but most I see are in an optically questionable condition and quite expensive even so. I read the front element glass is soft and it's hard to find a good one. True? Is the f/3.5 going to be better? Am I just as good with an Industar at that point?

I have a 1939 Summitar, what you said is true for the old ones like mine (also, they usually have 10 blades)...the glass is UNCOATED and gets scratched very easily. Plus, it flares like a maniac.

IMO a good Industar 26m/early 61 is a better performer than an old Summitar (can't speak for postwar ones with 6 blades and coating, though), they are a tad slower tough. The Industar 50 is a Tessar triplet too, f3.5 so more similar to an Elmar in terms of performance, if you can find one of these lenses in good conditions you can take pics like these:

First three shots were taken with a Leica IIIB and the I-50 (disregard the ugly tint from a bad scan) and the latter with one of the early I-60 with 10 blades and chrome barrel.

I bought the IIIb because it's a camera from 1939 so it was destined to the Summitar, but I wanted to test it with some Soviet glass, now I use these lenses on other cameras and I am very happy about them, but they are optically perfect, no scratches, no fungus, no haze. Most of the soviet stuff you find online is UGLY and they don't perform that great.

For the camera, I would suggest something more "evolved" than a Z1 or a II/III, a good starting point would be a Zorki 6 or a Fed 2: both cameras are similar, they are a cross between a Leica II and some design ideas taken from the Contax II (the glass is Zeiss, the datable back of the Z4 and Fed2 is a Contax idea and makes the load much easier, the Z6 does have a normal hinged door that is even better, the wide base rangefinder is also Contax down to the combined r/f) that makes them more handy than a Leica screw mounted.

The same rules apply to them: you have to buy them in good state otherwise they are junk and you'll get only frustration: both of them don't have slow shutter speeds so you don't have to worry about messing up the shutter and you can change the shutter speeds before or after advancing the film, the soviet cameras with that problem are those with slow speeds like the Z4.

 

[Pioneer]

I use my Elmars all the time. They are absolutely amazing lenses that are capable of great photographs.

 

[Richard S. (rich815)]

I have a 1939 Summitar, what you said is true for the old ones like mine (also, they usually have 10 blades)...the glass is UNCOATED and gets scratched very easily. Plus, it flares like a maniac.

IMO a good Industar 26m/early 61 is a better performer than an old Summitar (can't speak for postwar ones with 6 blades and coating, though), they are a tad slower tough. The Industar 50 is a Tessar triplet too, f3.5 so more similar to an Elmar in terms of performance, if you can find one of these lenses in good conditions you can take pics like these:

The Tessar is not a triplet but a four-element, or "double" doublet design:

"Despite common belief, the Tessar was not developed from the 1893 Cooke triplet design by replacing the rear element with a cemented achromatic doublet. In fact, Paul Rudolph designed the Anastigmat with two cemented doublets in 1890. In 1899, he separated the doublets in the Anastigmat to produce the four-element, four-group Unar lens. In 1902, he realized that reversing the two rear elements of the Unar and returning to a cemented doublet would improve performance; he named the result "Tessar", from the Greek word τέσσερα (téssera, four) to indicate a four-element design."

- http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tessar

Perhaps I misunderstood you use of the word "triplet" here?

 

[Lamar]

I just won a 1948 Summitar. Hope it's decent. I was really expecting to pay more for the IIIc so I was able to bump up my lens budget a little and get this thing right away, $304.00 US.

02Pilot:
Thanks for the insight. It helped me make up my mind. Speed is the most important to me, then collapsible partly for size and partly for aesthetics. I have 3 Jupiter 8's that came on my Zorki's, two older PT3030's and one PT3100. I really like them but I wanted something to go with the compactness of the IIIc and that was faster than 3.5. I find myself speed limited on my Graphic 35 and Argus quite often, even on my Jupiter-12. I think if I were satisfied with f/3.5 I would have gotten an Industar.

Flavio81:
I already have a Canon 7. I really like it, especially for its finder, but in this case I was specifically looking for a Barnack style camera.

Cuthbert:
Nice shots.

 

[Richard S. (rich815)]

KEH.com has a 50/2 Summitar in BGN condition for $289. In my experience their BGN grade exceeds anything on EBay described as VG or EX. Plus a 14-day return policy and 60-day warranty can't be beat.

 

[Ian Grant]

Some of the new Schott optical glass produce in the 1930's is soft in the sense that it's prone to attack from atmospheric pollution and scratching through cleaning. It was used in a few LF Tessars, Leitz Summars and also Novars. it may have been used in early Summitars.

Ive posted elsewhere on this forum that I'm not useing 35mm at the moment but if I was I'd get a Reid III the British made Leice with a TTH Cooke lens.

Ian

 

[Lamar]

Yeah, I saw that. KEH is my normal go to for used equipment because of that. The lens I got was from the same seller I got the camera from and has just been CLA'ed to sell so for the same reason of recent service I chose it. I hope this guy is good. I've put a good bit of faith in his work with my money. He has over 250 followers in eBay with a 100% rating so I'm hoping that is a good indication.

KEH.com has a 50/2 Summitar in BGN condition for $289. In my experience their BGN grade exceeds anything on EBay described as VG or EX. Plus a 14-day return policy and 60-day warranty can't be beat.

 

[cuthbert]

The Tessar is not a triplet but a four-element, or "double" doublet design:
QUOTE]

The Tessar is a triplet:

Here I see four elements in three groups, so it's a triplet for me, I don't see a double doublet that for me would be four elements in two groups.

I just won a 1948 Summitar. Hope it's decent. I was really expecting to pay more for the IIIc so I was able to bump up my lens budget a little and get this thing right away, $304.00 US.

I think your Summitar being postwar is already coated and has six blades, so it should better than mine. Still, even soft lenses have their uses..in my case the Summitar arrived with the M3 I had bought and I was disappointed because it was hard to use, plus filters and hoods are hard to find for that size. When I had the money I bought a DR Summicron, a little beated up but does its work well both in B&W and colour:

Still even old glass, low definition and low contrast like the Summitar, Summarit and the J-8s I have for instance have their uses:

This is a good thread on Summitars:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98814

 

[georg16nik]

... Speed is the most important to me, then collapsible partly for size and partly for aesthetics. I have 3 Jupiter 8's that came on my Zorki's, two older PT3030's and one PT3100. I really like them but I wanted something to go with the compactness of the IIIc and that was faster than 3.5. I find myself speed limited on my Graphic 35 and Argus quite often, even on my Jupiter-12. I think if I were satisfied with f/3.5 I would have gotten an Industar. ...

Good choice, since Summitar is fast, collapsible and relatively cheap as far as Leica glass goes.
The most compact ƒ/2 when collapsed is the 10 blade FED 2/50 that comes with the FED Komandirskie.

The Tessar is a triplet:

...

No, Tesar is not triplet.
Triplet means three single lenses. Tessar got 4.

 

[Ian Grant]

The Tessar is not a triplet but a four-element, or "double" doublet design:
QUOTE]

The Tessar is a triplet:

Here I see four elements in three groups, so it's a triplet for me, I don't see a double doublet that for me would be four elements in two groups.

A Triplet means 3 elements, it's optically quite different to a Tesaar with 4 elements in 3 groups, next you'll be saying a Tessar is similar to a Dialyte or that a Dagor is a doublet

Ian

 

[ph]

A point not touched upon above is the option of using Leitz film cassettes. If you use a larger number of B&W films you can buy longer lengths and "roll your own" . The film still has to be kept cool if stored for longer periods, but the advantage of the cassettes is that once inside the camera they open so that there is never a problem with scratched films (sand on the cassette lip for instance).

The IIIg viewfinder is bigger and brighter compared the earlier versions, but I gave up LTM a long time ago in favour of the Mseries. Bulkier and still somewhat fiddly to load, but very much better view.

p.

 

[Lamar]

On the FED 50mm f/2 that was mentioned earlier; I had never heard of that lens before. I found one on ebay with a quick search. They want as much as the summitars are going for.

 

[Sirius Glass]

A point not touched upon above is the option of using Leitz film cassettes. If you use a larger number of B&W films you can buy longer lengths and "roll your own" . The film still has to be kept cool if stored for longer periods, but the advantage of the cassettes is that once inside the camera they open so that there is never a problem with scratched films (sand on the cassette lip for instance).

The IIIg viewfinder is bigger and brighter compared the earlier versions, but I gave up LTM a long time ago in favour of the Mseries. Bulkier and still somewhat fiddly to load, but very much better view.

p.

Welcome to APUG

 

[georg16nik]

On the FED 50mm f/2 that was mentioned earlier; I had never heard of that lens before. I found one on ebay with a quick search. They want as much as the summitars are going for.

Correct, it's relatively rare piece of excellent ƒ/2 glass, the body that originally accompanied this lens have Z ( not B ), 1/20 and all the way to 1/1000. Some had slow speeds dial on the front as well.
We are talking FED ~ 1939 to 1941 or so. Jupiter 8 and 3 came along much later.

A point not touched upon above is the option of using Leitz film cassettes. If you use a larger number of B&W films you can buy longer lengths and "roll your own" . The film still has to be kept cool if stored for longer periods, but the advantage of the cassettes is that once inside the camera they open so that there is never a problem with scratched films (sand on the cassette lip for instance)....

Good point, all LTM and M up to M6? could use these. M can't load the FILCA ones made for LTM but the later can use M ones or FILCA.
The gate of the cartridge opens when you close the hatch at the bottom and respectively closes, when you unlock the bottom.

 

[Ian Grant]

On the FED 50mm f/2 that was mentioned earlier; I had never heard of that lens before. I found one on ebay with a quick search. They want as much as the summitars are going for.

I bought 2 Jupiter 8 lenses for £5 (<$8) each last year and could have bought more for the same price all in excellent condition, one black the other silver ? aluminium alloy I think, excellent lenses based on the Zeiss Sonnar used on Contax cameras.

I have an Industar as well, and an Elmar & Summar, the Jupiters are probably better lenses and they are both coated.

Ian

 

[Xmas]

Good point, all LTM and M up to M6? could use these. M can't load the FILCA ones made for LTM but the later can use M ones or FILCA.
The gate of the cartridge opens when you close the hatch at the bottom and respectively closes, when you unlock the bottom.

The M6 baseplate was changed part way through production so you need to replace the new pattern baseplate latch by an old pattern latch to operate the OXMOO cassettes.
The M7 and later Ms eg MP have a different chassis and won't accept the cassette.
The M5 won't operate the cassette.

 

[philipus]

Oh coated postwar Summitars can flare too

 

[georg16nik]

Oh coated postwar Summitars can flare too
...

Well, shooting strong, aggressive headlights became a trend after the Summitar was made

 

[Lamar]

My first Leica arrived. Wow, very nice. It's so small. It feels great and the mechanics are very smoooooooth. I like the side by side VF, its easy to focus in the RF then shift to the VF, it's a short trip. I have one of my J-8's on there now. RF seems about 15 cm off the scale of the J-8. In other words when I set a target at 3 m from the camera and set the J-8 to three meters on the scale I have to move the camera about 15 cm closer to get the RF on. The J-8 lens rotates about 3 to 4 degrees further clockwise on the Leica than it does on the Zorki's. I figure this is likely the issue regarding focus offset for the FSU lenses on Leica's I've been reading about and giving the benefit of doubt to the current RF cal. Waiting for the Summitar to come in before I pass judgement on the RF calibration. The only problem I see is that there is a small amount of JB Weld or similar stuff in the tripod threads that prevents me from screwing in my adapter. You'd never know it until you try to screw something in there.

 

[Lamar]

A quick question about film loading. The manual makes no mention of this but I saw a video that showed opening the shutter on "T" to load the film and using your finger to move the film into a better position. Will the film not find "home" on its own after you wind it past the leader a couple of times? Is this necessary?

 

[georg16nik]

Congrats!
Shoot some film or wait for the Summitar.
The few degrees clockwise offset is due to different thread entry points, there is no focus offset because of it.
You can come across Leica bodies and lenses with different thread entry points as well. Some converted Leica I to II had their infinity lock almost @ 11 o'clock, near the RF window, instead the usual 8 o'clock.

A quick question about film loading. The manual makes no mention of this but I saw a video that showed opening the shutter on "T" to load the film and using your finger to move the film into a better position. Will the film not find "home" on its own after you wind it past the leader a couple of times? Is this necessary?

Just trim the leader as pictured on cameras inside and you will be just fine.
Wind once, set the counter and from there on its ready. Sometimes some film cartridges leak, so winding twice is safer in order to have a 1st clean shot.

 

[cuthbert]

Oh coated postwar Summitars can flare too

Summicrons DR too!

Of course you used it for artistic license, like here:

The flariest lens I've ever owned is of course the Canon 50 mm f1.2, it's short and wide:

My first Leica arrived. Wow, very nice. It's so small. It feels great and the mechanics are very smoooooooth. I like the side by side VF, its easy to focus in the RF then shift to the VF, it's a short trip. I have one of my J-8's on there now. RF seems about 15 cm off the scale of the J-8. In other words when I set a target at 3 m from the camera and set the J-8 to three meters on the scale I have to move the camera about 15 cm closer to get the RF on. The J-8 lens rotates about 3 to 4 degrees further clockwise on the Leica than it does on the Zorki's. I figure this is likely the issue regarding focus offset for the FSU lenses on Leica's I've been reading about and giving the benefit of doubt to the current RF cal. Waiting for the Summitar to come in before I pass judgement on the RF calibration. The only problem I see is that there is a small amount of JB Weld or similar stuff in the tripod threads that prevents me from screwing in my adapter. You'd never know it until you try to screw something in there.

Congratulations with your purchase, my suggestion is to shoot a 12 exposures test film with the J-8: for instance on my Leningrad all J-8s cannot be screwed completely inside...I mean to have the red line completely vertical. They change nothing on focus tough, so I never tried to fix that "problem".

For the camera load please refer to this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaBhFj0Rc2I

This is the only correct procedure I'd recommend, no credit cards or other sillities.