Confused about kodak RA4 chemicals

markd514 · Jan 11, 2015

I have searched previous posts, and still cant get a definitive answer.

I see Kodak RA4 developer replenisher and bleach fix replenisher. I think this is all I need for rotary drum like unicolor or beseler or jobo processor.

But, there are SO many it makes my head spin. Looks like you need part a, b, and c for the developer. And part A and B for the bleach fix. THis used to be WAY easier when beseler offered 2 step chemicals..lol
thanks
can anyone point to the chems I need at adorama or b&h or unique photo?

markd514 · Jan 12, 2015

I am going to answer this myself...lol
I think I got it...the developer has 3 comonents, and bleach fixer has 2.
I just get these right? this is WAY cheaper than freestyle photo or anyone elses kits.

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polyglot · Jan 12, 2015

That's mostly right, 3 parts of colour developer PLUS there's a starter that you use when making up your working solution the first time from the replenisher. You can forego the starter, but your first few prints will need different exposure and filtration settings to everything else.

Best approach IMHO is to buy the 4x5L kits. 5L of developer will do about 300 8x10s, and the unopened 5L bottles will keep a lot longer than a larger, opened container. Buy one of everything made by Kodak on this page, plus some paper, and you will be set. I'm not sure where to get it in small quantities in the USA but if you like, I can go look at mine in the cupboard and get the Kodak part numbers off the boxes/bottles.

Edit: yeah, that looks like it will work. You will have a lot of replenisher stock to store though!

David Lyga · Jan 12, 2015

I find that the "RT" type are fine for my purposes. (This designation means 'roller transport' and probably means that there is a bit more anti-oxydation chemistry included within.) I do NOT use anything other than the developer'replenisher. In other words, no STARTER whose purpose is to slow down the activity with new (unused) chemistry.

Instead, I dilute the developer and process in trays for about 2 to 3 minutes at ambient temps. I then stop and rinse briefly in water to remove ALL developer (bleach HATES any vestige of developer). Then I bleach the print in dilute potassium ferricyanide (about 1 gram of PF for each 200 ml of water) for about one minute. Then I fix in paper strength fixer. No real need to rinse between bleach and fixer. That suits me well. No problems.

I keep mixed developer in PET plastic bottles filled to the brim by either squeezing (tall soda bottles can be sqeezed) or using glass marbles. - David Lyga

markd514 · Jan 12, 2015

I keep hearing that you do not need the starter for the developer when used in the home. Is this true? I have not seen the 5L kits in the US, so it looks like the 10L mix will be the way to go. I am going to use one shot and get rid of it as I did with the old beseler and unicolor chemistry. I am not dealing with volume. I just want excellent results.

markd514 · Jan 12, 2015

David Lyga said:
I find that the "RT" type are fine for my purposes. (This designation means 'roller transport' and probably means that there is a bit more anti-oxydation chemistry included within.) I do NOT use anything other than the developer'replenisher. In other words, no STARTER whose purpose is to slow down the activity with new (unused) chemistry.

Instead, I dilute the developer and process in trays for about 2 to 3 minutes at ambient temps. I then stop and rinse briefly in water to remove ALL developer (bleach HATES any vestige of developer). Then I bleach the print in dilute potassium ferricyanide (about 1 gram of PF for each 200 ml of water) for about one minute. Then I fix in paper strength fixer. No real need to rinse between bleach and fixer. That suits me well. No problems.

I keep mixed developer in PET plastic bottles filled to the brim by either squeezing (tall soda bottles can be sqeezed) or using glass marbles. - David Lyga

How do you process in trays? I mean working with paper and chemicals in total darkness seems like a daunting task. I can imagine reaching blindly into the tray with tongs, then getting it over to the other tray. Am I missing something? Why not just use a jobo or a beseler or unicolor drum and agitator...they are really cheap. I read posts of guys cutting the bulk rolls of paper down..how the heck is that done in total darkness?

mnemosyne · Jan 12, 2015

The developer consists of different parts, but you can buy them as a complete replenisher set ex starter. Others will give you the correct designation of the Kodak developer/replenisher chemistry for the US.

About the starter:
Starter is normally necessary in a process where repeatability is a concern and you re-use a given amount of developer over and over again while adding new solution (replenisher) to make up for the exhaustion. A roller transport machine with racks that sit in tanks would be an example. Repeatability means you print the same negative 20 times with the same exposure and filter and all the prints should/will look identical. You achieve this repeatability by replenishing the working solution in the tank after a given amount of paper has been processed. When you set up the working solution for the first time, you have to add starter (which contains inhibitors that reduce the activity of the developer) to make it behave like a seasoned developer, that has already seen paper going through. If you keep to the prescribed replenishing rates after that, you will always get repeatable results.

When one develops in drums (like you do), the chemistry is usually used one-shot. As you do not re-use the chemistry, but use fresh chemistry for every single print, developer doesn't exhaust progressively, so repeatability is not a problem. The developer/replenisher will be more active than developer/replenisher with added starter, but that can be compensated by filtration.

bvy · Jan 12, 2015

markd514 said:
How do you process in trays? I mean working with paper and chemicals in total darkness seems like a daunting task. I can imagine reaching blindly into the tray with tongs, then getting it over to the other tray. Am I missing something? Why not just use a jobo or a beseler or unicolor drum and agitator...they are really cheap. I read posts of guys cutting the bulk rolls of paper down..how the heck is that done in total darkness?

Many of the people tray processing RA-4 are also using a very dim green/yellow safelight. My opinion is that a safelight is one more variable to control, one more thing that can go wrong. Total darkness will never fog your paper. And, like you, I don't want to tray process in total darkness -- especially these chemicals. I tried this exactly once.

I use Unicolor drums on a motor base (at 94F). They're super easy to work with and deliver consistent (good) results. I've never understood the fussiness about how they have to be bone dry to work with. With the smaller ones, just fill them with warm water before you load your paper. This is your prewash and tempering bath in one step.

markd514 · Jan 12, 2015

bvy said:
Many of the people tray processing RA-4 are also using a very dim green/yellow safelight. My opinion is that a safelight is one more variable to control, one more thing that can go wrong. Total darkness will never fog your paper. And, like you, I don't want to tray process in total darkness -- especially these chemicals. I tried this exactly once.

I use Unicolor drums on a motor base (at 94F). They're super easy to work with and deliver consistent (good) results. I've never understood the fussiness about how they have to be bone dry to work with. With the smaller ones, just fill them with warm water before you load your paper. This is your prewash and tempering bath in one step.

I never tried the safelight. I read that the number 13 is the one to use. It is the same one I use for black and white. The only difference is that while I use a 15 watt bulb for B and W, I think you have to use 7 1/2 for color. Never tried it though.

I used to use the besler/ unicolor drums years ago with fantastic results. BUT....they had the beseler 2 step chemistry which had a time temperature chart where you took the room temp, and chemical temp, then plotted with a ruler to find the developing time. It worked well.

I now have a small jobo..I think it is the cpp2 or something. It is manual, and has no lift. I think I can handle it...lol They are still unreasonably high in cost for a chunk of plastic.

markd514 · Jan 12, 2015

Do I need the Kodak prime stabilizer? Nobody said I do, but I read processes that say you need it by Kodak.

RPC · Jan 12, 2015

You do not need the stabilizer.

The Kodak RA/RT replenisher can be used at room temperature, about 68-75F and I use it this way in trays. Much easier than heating up to temperature, you don't have to waste time washing and drying a drum, and small test prints are easy to make. I don't use a safelight. Working in the dark is easy to get use to. Make sure your safelight is safe for color negative papers. I used a drum many years ago but after switching to trays my productivity increased significantly. If the chemical fumes annoy you, ventilate adequately.

DREW WILEY · Jan 12, 2015

Ventilate adequately whether it initially annoys you or not. Otherwise, it's just a matter of time till the fumes do catch up with your lungs!

Roger Cole · Jan 12, 2015

I have an Osram Duka sodium safelight. The tubes are no longer made but the lights show up used occasionally. Zest on lowest it's safe for RA4 and bright enough to be useful. There are also LEDs that will work. Total darkness is not something I'll do if there's any reasonable way to avoid it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk and 100% recycled electrons - because I care.

David Lyga · Jan 12, 2015

markd514 said:
How do you process in trays? I mean working with paper and chemicals in total darkness seems like a daunting task. I can imagine reaching blindly into the tray with tongs, then getting it over to the other tray. Am I missing something? Why not just use a jobo or a beseler or unicolor drum and agitator...they are really cheap. I read posts of guys cutting the bulk rolls of paper down..how the heck is that done in total darkness?

My dear MarkD: this is the easiest way to go about things. Actually, I do not own a safelight and use darkness even for B&W.

I dilute highly (even three or four times, and even more than this but I do not wish to re-iterate what I wrote two years ago now) and simply put the developer into a tray just like with B&W. Of course, agitation is important, as with B&W. Develop for about two, even three, minutes. It is difficult to 'overdevelop'. Why is that so prone to 'fumbling'? To learn proper dexterity will take you a full five minutes.

After development, transfer to stop bath. With COLOR, remember, you have to be a bit more careful. After stop, rinse thoroughly (in a water tray). Change the stop and water frequently. Then bleach for about one minute, then fix for about one minute. Then lights.

NB: you CAN omit the bleach step without danger of anything: your print will have a bit more muted colors but even Hollywood has done this on occasion for a certain effect. Remember, the bleach gets rid of the exposed silver and the fixer gets rid of the unexposed silver. In other words, exposed silver remaining will be line with B&W prints but PLUS color hues in addition, thus mitigating those hues a bit.

In color developer, I have been using my fingers since I was 28 (1978) and am still alive to relate this to you. Of course, a LONG session will reward you with temporarily black, or brown, fingers. But no harm done. What would you rather do, Mark, rinse and re-rinse those tubes incessantly, or simply do things the crude, "David Lyga" way? I have a point here and I have been doing this since 1978 with color. - David Lyga

bvy · Jan 12, 2015

Why do you have to rinse and re-rinse drums? Why do they have to be dry? I can run a 4x5 clip in three minutes using an 8x10 drum and motor base. I rinse the clip or print inside the drum, thereby rinsing the drum at the same time. With 8x10 and 11x14 drums, I fill the drum with water first, as I described. That negates the need for drying.

I appreciate that trays work for some people. But for people that are sensitive to or just don't want to breathe the fumes, drums are a good alternative. "That I'm here to tell about it" is a poor endorsement for the safety of anything.

DREW WILEY · Jan 12, 2015

Gosh.... Do I ever know a few color lab folks who almost earned the Darwin award getting too casual with their chemicals... Having a third of
each lung removed kinda gets the point across. And they all installed serious industrial ventilation... It's just a matter of volume and how much still gets past that kind of thing. And if you don't have any ventilation at all, go figure.... Don't want to read the MSDS sheets, fine. Just
remember, those things spell out the minimum level of protection, not the ideal. But if even those don't get the point across........

Photo Engineer · Jan 12, 2015

Use rubber gloves, use a WR 11 or WR 13 safelight. I have been doing that for about 50 years. No fog.

Wash and dry drums or you will run the risk of spots on your prints.

Use RA-RT developer replenisher, NO STARTER, or equivalent. It can be used from 68F to 100F with just about the same results, just a slight color shift and contrast change.

Use a prewet with the Jobo but not with trays.

PE

Sirius Glass · Jan 12, 2015

Photo Engineer said:
Use a prewet with the Jobo but not with trays.

PE

But the Jobo tanks need to be dry when the paper is inserted, as I understand it. One of the posters claims that the Jobo tanks can be wet with water when inserting the paper. I have never heard about the use of wet drums before. Please clarify this.

Roger Cole · Jan 12, 2015

The problem I used to hear about was partially wet drums - dried but not thoroughly so some drops hit the print, or drained so lots of drops hit the print. I recall reading that you could simply fill the drum with water and slide the paper in that way, as long as it was ALL uniformly wetted, much like using a pre-wet. I quite doing RA4 in drums before I got my Jobo (used to use the Unicolor drum) so I never tried that.

polyglot · Jan 12, 2015

Sirius Glass said:
But the Jobo tanks need to be dry when the paper is inserted, as I understand it. One of the posters claims that the Jobo tanks can be wet with water when inserting the paper. I have never heard about the use of wet drums before. Please clarify this.

If you're pre-rinsing, there's no point in drying the drums. What, the paper is going to get wet before it gets wet?

If you're not pre-rinsing then a wet drum is asking for trouble because any water dribbles landing on the print (or god forbid, your film) will lead to a dribble-shaped mark of uneven development.

bvy · Jan 12, 2015

Sirius Glass said:
But the Jobo tanks need to be dry when the paper is inserted, as I understand it. One of the posters claims that the Jobo tanks can be wet with water when inserting the paper. I have never heard about the use of wet drums before. Please clarify this.

If that's me, I'm talking about a Unicolor print drum, not a Jobo (about which I know nothing, beyond what it is). I fill an 8x10 drum with water at or just above processing temperature (94F for me) and insert the paper into it, in the dark, after exposing. Then I cap it, turn on the lights, dump the water, and begin processing.

Photo Engineer · Jan 12, 2015

With a Jobo, and using a prewet, the drum can have water droplets all over the inside which can cause specks on the final print. In any case, when using any drum, the drum must be dry before inserting paper. Even wet hands can leave fingerprints all over the print.

If you fill the drum with water and then stick in the exposed paper, then this does not apply as the paper is being uniformly wet all at one time. But, handling a drum full of water in the dark is a problem for some.

PE

Sirius Glass · Jan 12, 2015

Photo Engineer said:
With a Jobo, and using a prewet, the drum can have water droplets all over the inside which can cause specks on the final print. In any case, when using any drum, the drum must be dry before inserting paper. Even wet hands can leave fingerprints all over the print.

If you fill the drum with water and then stick in the exposed paper, then this does not apply as the paper is being uniformly wet all at one time. But, handling a drum full of water in the dark is a problem for some.

PE

Thank you for the clarification.

polyglot · Jan 13, 2015

Photo Engineer said:
With a Jobo, and using a prewet, the drum can have water droplets all over the inside which can cause specks on the final print. In any case, when using any drum, the drum must be dry before inserting paper. Even wet hands can leave fingerprints all over the print.

If you fill the drum with water and then stick in the exposed paper, then this does not apply as the paper is being uniformly wet all at one time. But, handling a drum full of water in the dark is a problem for some.

PE

My experience says otherwise. Of course, my paper faces inwards in the drum; the prewet swells the emulsion completely and any dribbles that got onto the paper before the prewet are irrelevant.

Getting damp hands or dribbles on the paper before exposure is a disaster though.

Devon Anderson · Jan 13, 2015

For anyone new to RA4 colour processing, one of the key differences over black and white chemicals, is the shelf life - even when mixed up RA4 chemicals can last up to 6 weeks as long as they are in air tight fully filled containers

Confused about kodak RA4 chemicals

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