Confirm what I expect from a Kiev 4/Contax II shutter?

[Donald Qualls]

I just received the Kiev 4A(M?) I purchased (has the meter, which seems to work, haven't checked for accuracy yet). Everything looks very good, aside from the vulcanite coming up on a couple corners (I can fix that with a little contact cement). It's a 1973 vintage camera, with a 1973 dated Jupiter 8M 50/2 lens mounted. Everything is just as described, lens clean and clear, all functions function...

...except, when I get to the shutter speeds from 1/10 down to B, the shutter both opens and closes pretty slowly. Now, you'd generally shoot these speeds on a tripod, so that's not much of a problem, except it's hard to be sure the opening and closing take the same time -- it appears, to my eye, that the closing on B starts a little slow and make take 1/10 second or so longer than the opening. Same is true, if progressively a little less so, for 1/2, 1/5, and 1/10, while 1/25 looks pretty okay (though I'm well aware that the eye can't really tell much at this speed). If true, that would lead to uneven and quite possibly inaccurate exposure in these very slow speeds (might not matter much in B, since it's a fraction of a second out of what might be many seconds, but I use 1/10 every so often).

Am I correct in presuming this means the camera body is due for a CLA? And if so, roughly how much might one expect to pay for that service?

Alternatively, is this within the ability of someone who repairs power tools ranging from 60,000 rpm pencil grinders and pen sized air scribes on up, and has successfully cleaned a number of leaf shutters? I also successfully disassembled everything except the actual shutter box in an Exa II SLR, many years ago when my fingers and eyes were much younger, and the camera worked as well when I put it back together as it had before (no better, unfortunately; at age 14, I stopped before reaching the point of cleaning and relubricating the curtain drives, which I now know was what that camera actually needed to cure the second curtain failing to fully close). My resume in this regard also includes successfully correcting a cocking failure in a Petri 7s.

To be quite honest, unless this is likely to be something really simple like putting a few drops of Ronsonol into the shutter tracks, I'd prefer to send the camera out for a CLA. As noted, neither my fingers nor my eyes are what they were last time I worked on a camera...

 

[Donald Qualls]

Hmm. That's interesting. I just read that the Contax II (the original for which the Soviets took the tooling back to Kiev) both adjusted the shutter slit width, and the travel rate. It might well be that this shutter is working as designed. Might have to load up a roll and shoot it...

 

[abruzzi]

Yeah, the Kiev/Contax shutter does run slower at sub-1/30 speeds. That’s normal.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Yeah, the Kiev/Contax shutter does run slower at sub-1/30 speeds. That’s normal.

Thanks. I found an article on the Contax II that gave that information -- as well as mentioning the camera has around 700(!) parts. Probably best I don't try to take it apart, or at least not do anything to the shutter itself. After finding that, I went ahead and loaded up a test roll (Fuji Superia Xtra 400) and we'll see what I get.

Sure not looking forward to mailing the film Far Away and paying $20 for 4" prints and low res scans, just to get my negatives back, though. I need to dig in my chemical storage, maybe I still have what I need to mix up a batch of Dignan 2-bath C-41 developer and process that roll at home.

 

[abruzzi]

yeah, I picked up a CLAd Kiev IIa last summer on a trip to Russia. It can take some really nice photos, but it is slightly finicky. Mine had the original 1957 Jupiter-8 lens, but I changed that out for a slightly newer Jupiter-8M lens because I found that the way I carried the camera, I was always knocking the aperture around. the 8M has click stops unlike the 8, so it holds the set aperture more reliably.

 

[John Koehrer]

Hmm. That's interesting. I just read that the Contax II (the original for which the Soviets took the tooling back to Kiev) both adjusted the shutter slit width, and the travel rate. It might well be that this shutter is working as designed. Might have to load up a roll and shoot it...

Travel times should be consistent at any speed. If it's 12.5 ms it's the same throughout the range. The slit width controls
the shutter speed, narrower the slit, faster the speed. Many FP horizontal shutters,will synch @ 1/60 and that will be
the fastest before the second curtain will be in the film aperture and cut the image off.

If you check the at sync speed and the travel times are right, you should see no sign of the second curtain
when the shutter is released. If you're looking at slower speeds you will see the second curtain begin it's travel
before the first one clears the aperture.
Haven't really paid much attention but think there should be an increasing intrusion as the SS is increased.

** I doubt the parts count of 700 in the camera but wouldn't really want to check.

 

[Bud Hamblen]

https://richardhaw.com/2018/04/15/repair-zeiss-ikon-contax-2/ has information on getting inside a Contax II for service. It is intimidating.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Travel times should be consistent at any speed. If it's 12.5 ms it's the same throughout the range. The slit width controls
the shutter speed, narrower the slit, faster the speed. Many FP horizontal shutters,will synch @ 1/60 and that will be
the fastest before the second curtain will be in the film aperture and cut the image off.

This is the standard way FP shutters work; I learned this fifty years ago, near enough. It sounds like you're saying the Contax II (and hence the Kiev at least through the 4A and 4M) did the same, despite what I found specifically saying the shutter travels slower as the shutter speed is reduced (I can see why they'd do this, because it allows the first curtain to trigger the second, even for exposures much longer than the fast-shutter travel time). I can clearly see this with this shutter, as well, though I can't measure time to anything like millisecond precision. FWIW, I've never seen a FP shutter change speed until this camera arrived, even in ones with obvious failures (metal leaves missing, second curtain failinig to close, etc.), the first curtain speed was constant, as you say above. On this one, the first curtain slows, and so does the second.

Furthermore...

If you check the at sync speed and the travel times are right, you should see no sign of the second curtain
when the shutter is released. If you're looking at slower speeds you will see the second curtain begin it's travel
before the first one clears the aperture.
Haven't really paid much attention but think there should be an increasing intrusion as the SS is increased.

Seems like there might be some confusion here. If I use a flash to look at the shutter opening, I should see the whole opening when the first curtain trigger fires the flash, at all speeds slower than sync speed (which seems to be 50 on this shutter; all the higher speeds are marked in red). However, I shouldn't see second curtain intrusion at slower speeds, only at faster settings. This is pretty much the definition of sync speed.

Sadly, I can't check this at the moment -- first, because I loaded the camera last night, after seeing the article that said the shutter is supposed to travel slower at <25 speeds, and second because I haven't found a strobe with cord sync yet in the ongoing process of digging through my cameras and darkroom equipment.

 

[John Will]

I just received the Kiev 4A(M?) I purchased (has the meter, which seems to work, haven't checked for accuracy yet). Everything looks very good, aside from the vulcanite coming up on a couple corners (I can fix that with a little contact cement). It's a 1973 vintage camera, with a 1973 dated Jupiter 8M 50/2 lens mounted. Everything is just as described, lens clean and clear, all functions function...

...except, when I get to the shutter speeds from 1/10 down to B, the shutter both opens and closes pretty slowly. Now, you'd generally shoot these speeds on a tripod, so that's not much of a problem, except it's hard to be sure the opening and closing take the same time -- it appears, to my eye, that the closing on B starts a little slow and make take 1/10 second or so longer than the opening. Same is true, if progressively a little less so, for 1/2, 1/5, and 1/10, while 1/25 looks pretty okay (though I'm well aware that the eye can't really tell much at this speed). If true, that would lead to uneven and quite possibly inaccurate exposure in these very slow speeds (might not matter much in B, since it's a fraction of a second out of what might be many seconds, but I use 1/10 every so often).

...

Have you had a look at the 'Kiev Survival Site' http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/index.html Heaps of information and instructions for repair and cleaning.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Have you had a look at the 'Kiev Survival Site' http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/index.html Heaps of information and instructions for repair and cleaning.

I was referred to it by another source, but wasn't at home at the time. Thanks for reminding me, so I can bookmark it. I very seriously hope the only repairs I need to do on this camera are to stick down the lifting corners of the vulcanite covering; everything else appears to be fine, assuming the shutter travel slowing at low speeds is normal. I think that site may be where I read that it was.

I'd love to put the camera on a tripod and take a couple exposures in the 10/5/2 shutter range to check if it's really giving the right exposure at those speeds. I may still manage to do so; indoors, if I stop down to f/11 or so, I can get exposures in that range even with Superia Xtra 400 film. Then again, Superia may be about the worst possible film for verifying exposure -- my experience is that it virtually doesn't care, from EI 100 to EI 800 at least -- so one stop under to two over, the negatives are almost indistinguishable to the eye.

 

[Dan Fromm]

Donald, if you don't have a shutter speed tester why don't you ask the camera how well it can expose reversal film?

 

[Donald Qualls]

Donald, if you don't have a shutter speed tester why don't you ask the camera how well it can expose reversal film?

I don't have any in-date reversal film on hand in 35 mm (got a few expired rolls in 120, but that's no help here). Nowhere local to buy any (that I can find in Google). Then there's cost, of the film and the processing, because I'm not fully up to speed on processing even C-41, never mind E-6. And most of the online dealers and send-away photo labs I'd trust are in California (state closed due to fear of illness) or New York (same). So that's a reasonable possibility, but it's for the future.

I'll start by searching Play Store for a shutter speed test app for my smart phone (the film in the camera will be done in a couple days, even just shooting sporadically, but it's likely to be a couple weeks before I have the free time to mix up chemicals and process it).

 

[RLangham]

No CRT television or computer monitor to test it against? I have found that quite enlightening in several cases, and it's how I went about adjusting my FED 2.

Anyways, I'd offer to develop and scan your film if you paid shipping, but my C-41 chemicals are approaching depletion and it'll be a while before I can order some more.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I got rid of my last CRT when I moved, five years ago, and I'm pretty sure that trick won't work with a high res LCD monitor. As I said, I've got the chemicals to make C-41 developer and plain hypo fixer, which works fine with a two-bath process -- the only question is bleaching, and I might split the roll and try one half in potassium ferricyanide/potassium bromide, and the other half in acetic acid/hydrogen peroxide. Both are known to work on developed silver in B&W, and Kodak used to recommend ferricyanide bleach for C-22 (seems to me I've seen it as an alternative in C-41, too, in documents published back when it was new).

I found a shutter speed test app, but I'm not at all sure it'll work with the Kiev; it runs on sound (hears the shutter open and close), and the Kiev's shutter is so quiet. There's a light detection accessory for it that plugs into the headset jack, not sure yet what that costs. I may also look for a slo-mo app that actually records at higher frame rate than normal, so I can transfer the video to my computer and step frames in a video editor to get timing.

 

[RLangham]

the only question is bleaching, and I might split the roll and try one half in potassium ferricyanide/potassium bromide, and the other half in acetic acid/hydrogen peroxide. Both are known to work on developed silver in B&W, and Kodak used to recommend ferricyanide bleach for C-22 (seems to me I've seen it as an alternative in C-41, too, in documents published back when it was new)..

I had a phase where I was into bleach bypass. C-41 developer, plain hypo--leaves both a color neg and a thin B/W neg behind it. It gives boosted contrast and a dark, war documentary kinda look to the images, but my scanner refuses to scan about one in seven frames for being too thick. As for alternatives to C-41 bleach, my grandfather was the chemist... I have no idea. Someone recommended that I make pot ferri when I complained that my 120 color negs didn't totally clear, and that was the first time I've heard more than the name.

As for an LCD monitor, no, it won't work. I tried it the other day, and then I tried it with a strobing youtube video and it still didn't work.

EDIT: It just went completely over my head that you said acetic acid/hydrogen peroxide. Yes, I've tried that out as a reversal bleach for B/W slides. I was hampered by the fact that you can't get 9% Peroxide easily by where I live.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Someone recommended that I make pot ferri when I complained that my 120 color negs didn't totally clear, and that was the first time I've heard more than the name.

<snip>

EDIT: It just went completely over my head that you said acetic acid/hydrogen peroxide. Yes, I've tried that out as a reversal bleach for B/W slides. I was hampered by the fact that you can't get 9% Peroxide easily by where I live.

Potassium ferricyanide plus sodium thiosulfate is Farmer's Reducer -- among other things, it's used for lightening B&W prints, either overall or locally, and there are two variants -- one that works overall ("cutting formula") and another that reduces highlights more than shadows (it has another name, but I don't recall it at the moment). They differ mainly in the proportion of ferricyanide to thiosulfate. If you use ferricyanide with a halide donor, though (like even plain table salt, sodium chloride) it rehalogenates the developed silver -- and without fixer, the halide stays in place. This is behind color toners (they redevelop with color developer and a dye coupler), sepia toner (redevelop with a developer that produces strong stain), and at least one intensifier (redevelop with a formula that bring up silver density higher than it was before bleaching).

For color film, you'd use essentially straight "cutting" Farmer's Reducer, only you'd want a stronger solution so the reaction is faster (you're not watching the print to reach a particular appearance, you're after getting rid of all the silver). This would/could work for both C-41 and E-6, since the bleaching/fixing is done after all developing in both cases. I saw a fellow on YouTube who processes E-6 film with a B&W first developer, light fogs, then puts it through the rest of a C-41 cycle -- color developer and blix. This doesn't produce a "cross-processed" look, it produces pretty natural looking transparencies.

If you're working in the light, you can use plain 3% peroxide from the drug store (around here, it's under a dollar for 750 ml bottle). Pour it straight from the bottle, and swap the film back and forth between that and an acid bath, either citric acid at about lemonade strength, or acetic acid at stop bath strength (2%). Carry on until fully bleached, then rinse with water. If you go online, however, you can apparently buy up to 35% "food grade" peroxide; people dilute it for "oxygen therapy" (in which they dilute it still more, then drink it at a fraction of 1% strength). No, there's no scientific basis, and the strength is so low there's no significant amount of oxygen available anyway. But the 35% is strong enough to be genuinely hazardous (or make into rocket fuel); even hair bleaching only wants 9-12%. I don't know, however, whether this would work with color, because (especially) strong peroxide might also bleach away the color dyes. I'm pretty sure the same is true of the B&W reversal bleach I used to use, potassium dichromate/sulfuric acid -- pretty harsh stuff, quite toxic and carcinogenic, and bad for the environment.

 

[RLangham]

I saw a fellow on YouTube who processes E-6 film with a B&W first developer, light fogs, then puts it through the rest of a C-41 cycle -- color developer and blix. This doesn't produce a "cross-processed" look, it produces pretty natural looking transparencies.

Yes, it's quite easy to do. I practiced on c-41 film, which is obviously unusable as a transparency due to its orange backing, but it prepared me quite adequately for the real thing. The thing is, you have to nail your first development time. The second development is somewhat more forgiving, and anyways it's just normal c-41 development time.

As for it producing natural-looking transparencies... it depends on the film. I've heard that Ektachrome (old, new, doesn't matter) is not very forgiving of this improvised processing. Blue stain, iirc.

 

[John Koehrer]

Seems like there might be some confusion here. If I use a flash to look at the shutter opening, I should see the whole opening when the first curtain trigger fires the flash, at all speeds slower than sync speed (which seems to be 50 on this shutter; all the higher speeds are marked in red). However, I shouldn't see second curtain intrusion at slower speeds, only at faster settings. This is pretty much the definition of sync speed.

Sorry, you're Absolutely, positively correct. I guess I blinked before I posted.

 

[blockend]

The only things I can add are:
I killed a previously reliable Kiev4 by using the slow speeds. I suspect the fabric shutter rollers are under more pressure for the slower speeds.
Kiev/Contax repairers are thinner on the ground than Kodachrome laboratories. I exaggerate, but only slightly. If you find one, they'll probably be very expensive.
The Helios 103 53mm lens is lovely, far superior to the 50mm Jupiter IMO. The weird Jupiter 12 35mm lens is a Zeiss Biogon copy. It renders beautifully, but flares like crazy with a light source near the front element.
I own 3 Kiev 4 cameras. The one that works least badly has huge frame spacing. A fully working Kiev4 is a thing of beauty. I should really buy a Nikon S and have all the benefits of a Contax style camera with few of the quirks.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I now see why you call the Jupiter-12 "weird" -- I don't believe I've ever seen an interchangeable lens with the rear element glass protruding past all metal parts, so a poorly fitted back cap can result in scratching the coating (as is the case with this one -- it was only $35, shipped, but now I need to buy a parts lens to get another rear group and hope it matches well enough to stay sharp -- unless India ink will fix it, but this isn't a single scratch, it's a round smudge a quarter inch across). Still, I can get another one for about the same money, if I find I like it but the "smudge" is too troublesome...

Edit: Oh, BTW, I was wrong on the sync speed earlier, too -- it's 25. The 50 is marked red, too. Given the shutter is already slowing down the curtains at that speed, shutter drag shots should be child's play.

 

[Individual One]

Hi, I too have a Kiev 4. I find the shutter speed pretty difficult to judge by ear. I recall seeing someplace on the internet a shutter time measurement method based on taking photos of a target on an LP player. Costs nothing to try, if you have one. I have a pretty good timing setup using a laser, photodetector, and scope. It lets me selectively look around the shutter and see if exposure is even across the field. Anyways, I have had mixed results attempting so service my own cameras and am usually content to map the true shutter speeds and put a sticker on the camera so I can expose accordingly.
Here's the time data (assuming the upload works, first post for me here) for my 1976 Kiev4AM. Pretty good except it falls off at the high end. The dotted lines are +/- .5 stops.

 

[Donald Qualls]

There's also a pretty simple and more direct method to measure the speed, with a smart phone that can do slo-mo video -- lets you get 240 frames per second. Record, and count the open frames by a point light source behind the curtain. Photo results at this time suggest my shutter is pretty good, and slow speeds (where there are most likely to be problems) specifically good, so I haven't been urgent on this.

 

[Bud Hamblen]

In 1939 the Universal Camera Corp had Electrical Testing Laboratories test the shutter speed on a Zeiss Ikon Contax. In this test the 1/1250 setting was actually 1/700. This is from Cynthia A. Repinski's book, The Univex Story. Since the Kiev was much the same as the Contax I, it looks as if the Germans didn't do much batter than the Soviets.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Actually, the Kiev was a Contax II built in the relocated factory. Still, I never had any expectation of the 1250 speed being accurate -- in practice,. 500 is as high as I'm likely to need to go (not a big bokeh shooter, so not prone to open up wide in bright sun with fast film). 1/700 is close enough to 1/1000 (about 1/2 stop) for practical purposes; as long as it's distinctly faster than the 1/500 I'm okay. I was thrown when I first got the camera, because the Contax shutter design (slower curtain movement at slow speeds instead of just longer delay on second curtain) sounds way off from 1/50 on down. Sorta seems like it was designed by someone who'd never seen a focal plane shutter (or worked on too many Folmer & Schwing units, with their variable drive spring tension).