Conceptual vs Traditional Photography - questions for the viewer

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SuzanneR

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I think some of the galleries in NYC are being run by very good marketing and sales people, and not necessarily by folks who truly understand the medium, though I would venture to guess there are some exceptions. Bonnie Bemrubi, Howard Greenburg, Gitterman Gallery to name a few. Jen Beckman's 20x200 is an enormously popular, and I'm sure quite profitable venture, but I rarely like the work on offer. And Daniel Cooney has done these "emerging artists" auctions via iGavel, but the work in them strikes me as generally shallow, but then again, it's very affordable.

Although I've not listened to Jensen's podcasts lately, I find Lenswork to be similarly limited as some of these galleries in the type of work he publishes. It's all very beautiful and well crafted, but often (to me) not all that interesting. And he's been running more and more lengthy writing about the same stuff (the creative process *yawn*), and, I know it's heresy to say, but I even find the Bill Jay short takes a little tedious. I think I'd like to see more work of a documentary nature in his pages than he offers, but my taste for artfully done documentary pictures seems to be on the outs!!
 

Marco B

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I think I'd like to see more work of a documentary nature in his pages than he offers, but my taste for artfully done documentary pictures seems to be on the outs!!

I think we could use more documentary style photography here on APUG as well!

But I know, it is easier and maybe more fun to go into the wilderness for our photo hobbies, than shoot a good documentary.
 

keithwms

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Just saw this.

So... I gather that the consensus is that there is a difference between conceptual and traditional photography? Interesting. I thought all photography was either conceptual (tending to emphasize and reveal the interpretation of the photographer) or journalistic/documentary (tending to de-emphasize the interpretation of the photographer and provide a faithful record). Those are the two broad branches of photography, I think, the disparate objectives that underly most of the controversy that arises in the field, since so much of what we see in modern photography seems to have mixed motives.

I guess I am unaware of what is meant by 'traditional' photography in this context. Don't mean to lead the thread astray, but.... to me 'traditional' means according to tradition, i.e. following in the footsteps of others, i.e. revisiting what has been done before... things that to me tend not to be fresh, unique and creative. If traditional means using the traditional workflow, well that is entirely different.
 

c6h6o3

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Interesting----I'm in Owensboro and although I knew Louisville had galleries, I can never seem to get there. Evansville across the river would be better for me, do you know the names of any that might be worthwhile visiting? I would really love to see some traditional b&w photography.

You should get to know Paul Paletti in Louisville. His is a significant collection. I'll introduce you if you'll let me know when you'll be there. I think he'd like your work, BTW.
 

mcfactor

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Yeah, I have to agree with David, there are a ton of galleries in the city showing photography that is both "conceptual" and "traditional". The Pace/MacGill gallery had a great Nicholas Nixon exhibit in October of his 11x14 contact prints and the McKee gallery had an exhibition of life-sized ilfochromes made with a camera obscura by Richard Learoyd that were sublime.

New York is the art captial of the world, and as such, has a huge amount of galleries that are extremely diverse. Yes, there are clear trends, but it really depends on what street you are on. Galleries in Chelsea will be different from galleries in Williamsburg which will be different from galleries on 57th st, and so on.

My point is that to characterize photo galleries in NYC as any one thing would be inacurate and unfair to the art/photo community.
 

juanito

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Hi,

Is somebody is coming to Mexico thesse days you can see a very good
photo exposition at the Museo de San Ildefonso.
Iis called "Subjectif Photography, the German Contribution 1848-1963"
It is conceptual photography made by traditional methods.

The link: Dead Link Removed
 

wclark5179

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I don't pay any attention to those folks. Photography, as an art, is very subjective as each person see things differently. Getting certificates of recognition or awards are of little meaning to me and I've never had my bank take them for deposit.. For me, running a business, beauty is in the eye of the checkbook holder.
 
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Roger Ballen has a show up at the Gagosian (Madison location) right now, which I think is brilliant work. Whether it's conceptual or not I've no idea, but it's gooood photography and I suggest it.
 

removed account4

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i don't even know what traditional photography is -
documentary? nature/landscape? black and white? portraits?

since photography is an abstraction to begin with
isn't it all conceptual ?
 

keithwms

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i don't even know what traditional photography is -
documentary? nature/landscape? black and white? portraits?

since photography is an abstraction to begin with
isn't it all conceptual ?

Yep, that's what I was getting at in post 30. Still not sure what is meant by 'traditional photography.'
 

Larry Bullis

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i don't even know what traditional photography is -
documentary? nature/landscape? black and white? portraits?

since photography is an abstraction to begin with
isn't it all conceptual ?

Thank you.

If it's not, it's dead.

We've attributed a meaning to "conceptual" which is unnecessarily narrow and derived from a very loose and poorly defined set of examples in what was, recently, contemporary art. Not all of what Jensen is doubtlessly referencing is really conceptual, in that it is imitative of certain established trends.
 
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Chris Lange

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Avoid Roni Horn's exhibit at the Whitney in NYC like the plague if you like good photography, her show should be considered an embarrassment to the medium.

Unfortunately, it also has not one, but TWO floors devoted to it, an absolute outrage.

Instead, save the money and go see Robert Frank's exhibit of The Americans at The Met for a really well designed and inspiring exhibit! It's up till the third of january, and is absolutely phenomenal!
 

Chuck_P

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You should get to know Paul Paletti in Louisville. His is a significant collection. I'll introduce you if you'll let me know when you'll be there. I think he'd like your work, BTW.

Thanks----and I would love to visit there (we're 120 miles west) and I will keep this post in mind. We've (wife and I) been talking about also taking a tour of a winery near there perhaps in January or February, you may get message from me some time to take you up on that.
________________

To keep in line with the OP, I have in my mind what traditional photography is to me, but not really sure about conceptual photography. Another post mentioned that traditional could mean a re-hash of what has been done before and therefore not new or creative, but I think new and creative has to be defined-----what the heck is that anyway. Not being sarcastic, I just don't really know.
 

Q.G.

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Another post mentioned that traditional could mean a re-hash of what has been done before and therefore not new or creative, but I think new and creative has to be defined-----what the heck is that anyway. Not being sarcastic, I just don't really know.

Not being sarcastic either, but really?

P.S.
I'll put that as a more complete question, and ask what you think new and creative could mean.
 

Chuck_P

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Not being sarcastic either, but really?

P.S.
I'll put that as a more complete question, and ask what you think new and creative could mean.

I don't know, I was hoping you could tell me :tongue:, but I don't believe that it's really all that important either. I realize the gallery owners do, but I think it is to a huge detriment, IMO.

I'll say that I'm encapable of getting deep in this discussion, it's far too ethereal or mystical for me. I simply believe that there is too much emphasis put on presenting pure originality or what has not been photographed before, and I think that is, for all practical purposes, impossible. I believe that all that is capable of being photographed (in terms of subject matter)------pretty much has been photographed. What becomes important to me is the final beauty of the thing that represents your effort. Crap! Now I feel I have to define beauty......it's pointless.

Anyway, believe me, I realize how simple a point of view I have and I've no doubt that someone much more sophisticated than I will set me straight.
 

Q.G.

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It's a quite 'down to earth', and real thing.
Music like Punk had never been heard before. That was new and original.
André Rieu's rehashing of 19th century popular music is not.

Pictures showing people posing so that the impression is (or rather: should be) given that they are pushing the leaning tower of Pisa back up again are not new and creative.
The first photographer who did that was doing something new and creative.

The appreciation for being new and creative is the same business as we see, say, when jokes are told. Tell a joke we have all heard 100 times before... etcetera.
But people do manage to come up with 'fresh' ones.

No mystique involved, right? :wink:

So you must already have a definite idea about what being new and creative is, else you would not have thought it was "too ethereal or mystical".
So where did you go wrong? :wink:
 
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jovo

jovo

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There's one other factor that has been overlooked here that is not so much doing something utterly original, but rather, doing it superbly. Classical musicians can still (barely) carve out a niche for themselves as soloists playing music as much as 300 years old by doing it exceedingly well. "Popular" musicians can do the same covering the original music of others. Painters, as I mentioned above, can do very, very well (check out Peter Poskas for instance) making art that would not cause alarm to 19th century painters at all. Mozart did not break new ground; he composed in the musical language of his time, but with genius, wit, charm, and irresistible musicality. Actual paintings by Vermeer are apparently very difficult to distinguish from other work by the Flemish masters because they are so much in the manner of their contemporaries. Members of various "schools" (Hudson River school, Impressionists, cubists, and whatever) made/make their work with a similar vocabulary. So it's not just originality that counts, but skill as well unless you're the darling of a particular circle of taste makers who are also very influential. (If you've got an MFA from Yale, you'll do well in NYC). I just wonder how much of the work some have cited negatively here is collected, and does it allow the "artist" and his representatives to earn a living at it.
 

Q.G.

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You can tell a Vermeer from a heap of his contemporaries' work in a split second. :wink:
That's what being new and creative brings about.

But you're right, of course, that a good thing well done will be appreciated, even if it isn't exactly new and creative.

You're also right that sometimes none of that counts (can be quite unnecessary), as long as you belong to the right circle of people at the right time. That, alas, is a big part of how the art market works.
 

Chuck_P

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There's one other factor that has been overlooked here that is not so much doing something utterly original, but rather, doing it superbly.

I could never have stated it so succinctly. As I think about this I believe that "creativity" is not, nor really has it ever, been on trial, but this notion of "new" is suspect, IMO, and can be, not always, but can be overrated. I'm way overdrawn on my two cents. :D
 

chriscrawfordphoto

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So much of photography is about documenting the world. This can be done in a 'straight photo' style and still be new and interesting not because of the style but because it shows subject matter we have not seen or opens our eyes about the way the world works or what is happening in the world
 

mlcolbert

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Hi guys, coming at this thread a bit late; there are images which no one else has ever taken before but you enter the realms of astrophotography, photomicrography or using your camera whilst scuba diving ( I refer here to the discovery of new species and so on, which are still being located, especially in lakes and rivers in caves.) You don't need to be a professional in the area but just enthusiastic and willing to explore. Or what about clouds? They constantly are in a state of chaotic change.
 

Shaggysk8

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I for one love the fact that galleries choose to hang work from this time and work that pushes forward photography as an art form, I may not like it all I may not get all of it but I love seeing it, but we must never forget the old or say its rubbish for being old people really should embrace more and want to push forward but also with the skill for the old timers :D
 

Larry Bullis

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I've just scanned/reread this whole thread, and must say that I'm impressed with the breadth of the conversation. It has stimulated me to revisit the question of the function of criticism.

I don't read Lenswork much. Friends have published in it, and another friend/neighbor is a frequent contributor. Occasionally I encounter Brooks Jensen at art openings, etc. and have participated to a limited extent in conversations, which I have enjoyed. He may not remember these incidents, because mostly I just listened, asking an occasional question to see where he'd take it, and they haven't been frequent. I do value him and Maureen as great members of the community, and really appreciate the work they do.

I do have some difficulty with ideologies, whether they be "traditional", "conceptual", or whatever. I think this comes from my active participation in a very broad range of photographic activities to the point where it has sometimes seemed that nobody can figure out who or what I am. For example, I've always been passed over for teaching gigs. Commercial programs think I'm "fine art" and in fact I was terminated from one such program because my senior colleague believed that I was leading the students astray. "Our job" he said "is to indoctrinate these young people into becoming crass commercialists like us". Fine art programs have often suspected me of being commercial. In my first stint in grad school, back in 1970, they wouldn't let me teach photography because since I had worked with Minor White, I was suspected of being "straight", where the head of the program was committed to "New Photographics"? Anyone remember that annual show? In other situations, I was blackballed because I was known to cross media boundaries away from the "traditional" medium. Once, a well known curator stayed at my house in Seattle. Looking through my portfolios, he proclaimed that I'd never get anywhere because I worked in so many different genres that - as I mentioned - nobody would be able to figure out who I am or have the ability to identify particular work as being mine. Of course he was right.

As hard as this has been for me, it is who I am, and the good side of it (for me) is that it has given me an unusual breadth in the way I see these things. I have an enormous capacity to appreciate work in many dimensions and I see no need whatever to stake a claim on one or another as the promised land. I think it is wonderful that we get to see such a variety of work. It is great that we get to see work that we may see as really stupid. Without this spectrum, what do we have, really? How can we define ourselves without having a spectrum of reference?

We are encouraged to have opinions about everything. Does this have some sort of function for us - as if without opinions, we don't exist? "I am my convictions"? I think that the critic is so often considered to be one who expresses opinions; is something good or bad? In the broader sense, such judgments are far less important than the other functions of a critic. I love to read reviews in the New Yorker, whether I'm going to read the book(s), see the art, or not, because I learn so much about what the work is, does, means, and about the context in which it lives.

One of my teachers (I've had a lot of stellar ones) admonished us to approach artwork with an essentially empty mind, in a state of "Serene, open awareness". Granted, if we look back at some of the icons of conceptual art, such as Chris Burden's installation where he was shot with a real gun in front of a gallery, it is hard to imagine much serenity, but I think the greater issue is the importance of seeing with the mind unfettered, understanding the work, and judging later. It seems to me that the rush to judgment wears us out and keeps us enslaved.

Where I personally have difficulty is in the tendency to approach complex issues with a simple, dualistic mind.

Brooks' agenda, as I understand it, is that he wants photography (defined narrowly to be what we have been calling "traditional" here) to be accepted as an art form that is just as important - and as expensive - as any other. In the context where one of these conversations took place, a barn show which a local artist used to put on as her birthday party, he pointed out that the paintings cost many times more than the photographs. The observation was correct. However, I think the issue contains a lot of dimensions that don't lend themselves to easy answers, no matter how much we may believe in one thing or another.

Thanks, jovo, good thread.
 
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