Concentrated long lasting paper developer formula

[ruilourosa]

I just made a liter of concentrated id62 using 150gr of sodium carbonate plus 5gr of potassium hidroxide...
I dos not add benzotriazole as i run out of it.... Just 5 gr of bromide...
Lets see if there is some cristalization... And if it works properly... Im a bit afraid of fog but...

 

[grainyvision]

Why the need to avoid potassium carbonate? I've never seen any highly active (paper) developer of high concentration accomplish it using sodium salts. It seems like a pointless endeavor to save a very small amount of money. It looks like 5lbs(2.2kg) of potassium carbonate is available local to me for $30 while 5lbs of sodium carbonate anhydrous is $20 and sodium carbonate monohydrate (more stable, more commonly specified) is $35. For your example, assuming you're using the more common anhydrous, 150g of sodium carbonate is about 1.415 mols, equivalent to 195.6g potassium carbonate. To make 1L of this like you have, that's a price difference in only carbonate of $2.66 for potassium carbonate vs $1.36 for sodium carbonate. I think the amount of chemistry which must be used in order to figure out a way to make this substitution work would very quickly make the $1.30 of price savings very quickly an irrelevant consideration. If potassium carbonate is especially difficult to affordably find in your locale, then maybe this savings is substantial enough to matter. Also substituting potassium carbonate with a mixture of sodium carbonate and potassium hydroxide is not really equivalent, the potassium hydroxide will not retain as much pH stability. If you have cheap potassium hydroxide available as well as boric acid, you could try to make potassium metaborate which can be relatively easily made in a very concentrated solution exceeding 50% (and equivalent to something like 70% of sodium metaborate due to hydration state). Metaborate solubility is also not affected by glycol like carbonate is, in case you need to use propylene or ethylene glycol for the developing agents. However, there's not too many paper developers that use metaborate without carbonate. I have one formula, but it uses TEA as well which severely limits the solubility of sodium sulfite. One component which doesn't seem to affect solubility of sulfite as much as other things is DMSO. It may be hard to source and tends to make your darkroom smell bad, but is not toxic and somewhat common to find in some regions due to use in veterinary applications. Using DMSO it is possible to make a phenidone solution of 70% concentration or hydroquinone of at least 30% concentration (likely closer to 50%). High concentration might be possible with glycin (if neutralized and using glycol, free base glycin is extremely soluble in glycol), but the most obvious way to achieve it is the much more common phenidone-hydroquinone combination.

I would be interested in a 10ml of concentrate to make 1L of paper developer formula, but I do not expect you could achieve this without some slightly exotic ingredients including potassium sulfite (or potassium metabisulfite and synthesizing in situ)

 

[ruilourosa]

Lets see as said by the blind man.

I can have 1 kg for around 1 euro of sodium carbonate mono
Potassium carbonate is 18 times more....

Hidroxides are not buffered, i know... But i am not using it alone....

20 years ago i did made some experiments with sodium and potassium carbonate and hidroxides.
I had a bit of fog issues, solved with benzotriazole...
And... Some cristalization...

I am trying to find a good solution for a school without many resources... So glycin is a no...

Pq or maybe pa dev is going to be the way...
And the most concentrated version possible...

 

[tezzasmall]

I'm sure I've seen a 1+9 version of D72 somewhere... Anyone???? I currently have been making it to use at 1+2, but the 1+9 formula would be helpful to me also.

But the following two formulas can be made at 1+9. They are warm-tone, but will be good with non warm-tone papers as well:

http://www.lostlabours.co.uk/photography/formulae/developers/devID62.htm

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/archive/index.php/t-129272.html

Terry S

 

[ruilourosa]

I just made a liter of concentrated id62 using 150gr of sodium carbonate plus 5gr of potassium hidroxide...
I dos not add benzotriazole as i run out of it.... Just 5 gr of bromide...
Lets see if there is some cristalization... And if it works properly... Im a bit afraid of fog but...

No cristalization just some sediment i will filter...
I will try 1+9 shortly regarding fog, max density, contrast and tone.

Dissolving 150gr of sodium carbonate was not easy but when i added 5gr of potassium hidroxide the solution cleared.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Lets see as said by the blind man.

I can have 1 kg for around 1 euro of sodium carbonate mono
Potassium carbonate is 18 times more....

Hidroxides are not buffered, i know... But i am not using it alone....

20 years ago i did made some experiments with sodium and potassium carbonate and hidroxides.
I had a bit of fog issues, solved with benzotriazole...
And... Some cristalization...

I am trying to find a good solution for a school without many resources... So glycin is a no...

Pq or maybe pa dev is going to be the way...
And the most concentrated version possible...

I heard it this way………”I see said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw”.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

D72 is to be diluted normally 1+2, i want to make a stronger concentrate to be diluted 1+9

try to increase the amount of ingredients up to the possible limit.

 

[ruilourosa]

I heard it this way………”I see said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw”.

 

[pentaxuser]

D72 is to be diluted normally 1+2, i want to make a stronger concentrate to be diluted 1+9

Have a look at Lostlabours website. He gives the concentrate solution that allows a 1+9 dilution but it requires what seems to be a proportionate increase in the 1+3 or very nearly proportionate increase. It is ID 72

Here it is:http://www.lostlabours.co.uk/photography/formulae/developers/devID62.htm

pentaxuser

 

[ruilourosa]

Theo

Have a look at Lostlabours website. He gives the concentrate solution that allows a 1+9 dilution but it requires what seems to be a proportionate increase in the 1+3 or very nearly proportionate increase. It is ID 72

Here it is:http://www.lostlabours.co.uk/photography/formulae/developers/devID62.htm

pentaxuser

The issue is the price of the salts being used, as commented through the thread

 

[pentaxuser]

Theo

The issue is the price of the salts being used, as commented through the thread

I fear can only wish you well in your attempt to do what you want or need to do as a result of the need for economy of cost, efficacy of the subsequent developer and the necessary concentration

pentaxuser

 

[ruilourosa]

thanks!!!!!

 

[koraks]

I can have 1 kg for around 1 euro of sodium carbonate mono
Potassium carbonate is 18 times more....

Are you sure you can't get a better deal? My preferred store in the netherlands retails pot. carbonate at around €7 for 1kg and €47 for 25kg. They retail to consumers, so these are not b2b wholesale prices or anything.

 

[ruilourosa]

It has to do with purity... I can get sodium carbonate in a lower but perfectly acceptable grade, and the potassium carbonate i can get is pure...
I already checked around ... But no...

 

[koraks]

You don't need very high purity for this application.
I'm surprised there apparently aren't better retailers of generic chemicals in your country.

 

[ruilourosa]

I know that high purity is not an issue and usually i can get cheap chemicals but potassium carbonate is an exception...

 

[mshchem]

1 package (5L) of Ilford Bromophen will make 20 liters of working solution. I've used it for decades. Package the stock solution into full 250ml and 500ml bottles it keeps a long long time.
1 250ml makes liter of working solution.

 

[ruilourosa]

1 package (5L) of Ilford Bromophen will make 20 liters of working solution. I've used it for decades. Package the stock solution into full 250ml and 500ml bottles it keeps a long long time.
1 250ml makes liter of working solution.

Thanks for your answer but... I have raw chemicals i want to use...

 

[Nikola Dulgiarov]

Thanks for your answer but... I have raw chemicals i want to use...

I think that if your end goal is to use the inexpensive chemicals you have available, have a good, known formula, then you can compromise on the concentration Even if a formula requires 2.5x the volume, just use bigger containers.
You can also prepare dry A/B packets to make the concentrate and store them.

 

[ruilourosa]

I managed to put 150gr of sodium carbonate into solution but i think adding 5gr of potassium hidroxide helped as the solution only cleared when i added the hidroxide. Its similar to id62.
No cristalization, i will test the developing habilities and characteristics soon as i run out of benzotriazole

 

[Ian Grant]

I just made a liter of concentrated id62 using 150gr of sodium carbonate plus 5gr of potassium hidroxide...
I dos not add benzotriazole as i run out of it.... Just 5 gr of bromide...
Lets see if there is some cristalization... And if it works properly... Im a bit afraid of fog but...

What you've actually mixed is not ID-62 rather ID-78 the warm tone variant. I't won't give you fog The Benzotriazole is there to produce Neutral tone in ID-62.

You didn't need to add the Potassium Hydroxide as well as the 150gm Sodium Carbonate you only add Hydroxide if you reduce the Carbonate. to maintain the same pH. The issue is you can get the 150g Sodium Carbonate to dissolve, but depending on temperature it starts to precipitate.

Ian

 

[ruilourosa]

What you've actually mixed is not ID-62 rather ID-78 the warm tone variant. I't won't give you fog The Benzotriazole is there to produce Neutral tone in ID-62.

You didn't need to add the Potassium Hydroxide as well as the 150gm Sodium Carbonate you only add Hydroxide if you reduce the Carbonate. to maintain the same pH. The issue is you can get the 150g Sodium Carbonate to dissolve, but depending on temperature it starts to precipitate.

Ian

I added 5gr of bromide to a liter of concentrate to dilute 1+9, is it enough?
I already ordered some benzotriazole

 

[Ian Grant]

10g would be better. When Ilford changed their powder developer ID-20 from MQ to PQ in the late 1950's customers complained that the ID-20 PQ was causing shifts in the colour of tones with use. They re-formulated the developer as ID-62 adding Benzotriazole and halved the Bromide, they also increased the concentration and sold it in liquid form as PQ Universal switching from Sodium Carbonate to Potassium Carbonate and Sodium Hydroxide.

Ian

 

[koraks]

The issue is you can get the 150g Sodium Carbonate to dissolve, but depending on temperature it starts to precipitate.

Additionally, there can be problems when trying to dissolve the necessary amount of hydroquinone if you already have a lot of sodium carbonate dissolved.
Of course there is no problem in itself dissolving 150g/l sodium carbonate; even anhydrous sodium carbonate has a solubility limit of 164g/l at 15C and OP is likely using either monohydrate (192g/l limit @ 15C) or decahydrate (443g/l @ 15C).

Since we haven't touched on this, @ruilourosa, which species are you using for your developer? Monohydrate or decahydrate? The carbonate you can buy at the supermarket can be either. It's important to determine which you have because of the huge conversion factor between the two; you need more than twice as much decahydrate than monohydrate (2.3 times to be fairly precise).

Finally I second the suggestion of @Nikola Dulgiarov - if you have the components to make a known-good developer that isn't too concentrated, just use bigger bottles and live with it. It's really easy to make a developer that keeps well as a mild concentrate and that mixes 1+2 or 1+3 with water to make a working solution. That, or get some potassium carbonate. Again, I'm fairly sure you can find it for cheap if you search creatively enough. Note that I virtually never buy my chemicals from stores focusing on photography and in fact about half to two-thirds of the stuff I use comes from either the local supermarket or food supply companies.

 

[Ian Grant]

Koraks, Sodium Carbonate is available as anhydrous as well so three different forms, actually the anhydrous is the commonest form in Europe.

Ian