Comparing paper characteristic curves

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radiant

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I've been lately printing with Ilford Multigrade Deluxe (aka V) RC paper and testing fiber based paper, in my case I have been using Fomabrom Variant III (https://www.foma.cz/en/fomabrom-variant-III).

I wanted to plot out both papers characteristic curves and found out a great tool to digitize the manufacturer's charts at https://apps.automeris.io/wpd/

Here is one comparison between those two papers, plotted grades 0 (or 00) / 3 / 5 :

Näyttökuva 2019-12-10 kello 21.02.24.png


X-axis is relative log exposure (There was 1.5 difference between Ilford and Foma), Y-axis is density.

My observations:
- at grade 0 / 00 both papers seem to behave quite similar
- ilford at grade 3 grows density much faster than Foma and Foma's slope is more gentle
- both at grade 5 start growing density at same exposure but Ilford reaches max density much faster

What do you see? :smile:
 

bernard_L

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Indeed Foma grade 5 is not quite as contrasty as Ilford grade 3. Interesting. Nice that you put the two sets of curves on a single plot. But I suspect that the curves published by the manufacturers are to some extent "idealized".
Now I'm curious and tempted to do actual measurements...
 
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radiant

radiant

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Nice that you put the two sets of curves on a single plot.

I haven't seen much of this kind of combo-graphs at all. It would interesting so see this kind of comparison on films too. Of course the graphs aren't 100% truth but I'm pretty sure they resemble some part of the reality.

Now I'm curious and tempted to do actual measurements...

Surely I will test the papers after this!
 

koraks

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Foma at grade 3 doesn't do a particularly good job at differentiating shadow values, and a similar effect in the highlights at grade 00. For some, these may be reasons to disqualify this paper.
Edit: I typed grade 5, but should have been 3.
Looking a bit closer, grade 3 on foma is essentially somethin like a grade 1 in the shadows and a grade 5 in midtones and highlights. They seem to have some issues with interactions between emulsions going on these graphs. A fomabrom dataset I quickly pulled up doesn't show this effect. Where did you get these data?
 
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radiant

radiant

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Foma at grade 3 doesn't do a particularly good job at differentiating shadow values, and a similar effect in the highlights at grade 00. For some, these may be reasons to disqualify this paper.
Edit: I typed grade 5, but should have been 3.
Looking a bit closer, grade 3 on foma is essentially somethin like a grade 1 in the shadows and a grade 5 in midtones and highlights. They seem to have some issues with interactions between emulsions going on these graphs. A fomabrom dataset I quickly pulled up doesn't show this effect. Where did you get these data?

The data is plotted by myself on top of datasheet curves - as there isn't any numeric data available publicly. The difference with the different paper datasheets is that their relative exposure doesn't match in general, so I assumed that Foma data is starting at 1.5 and ends in 3.5 (their X-axis in datasheet is 0-2). Both papers reach dMax in that point then.

I re-digitized and plotted the data and here is the new plot and the first one is looking pretty similar to this second on too:

upload_2019-12-11_8-32-50.png


(attached the data in CSV zipped)

The datasheets:
https://www.ilfordphoto.com/amfile/file/download/file/1952/product/1696/
https://www.foma.cz/en/fomabrom-variant-III

Koraks: I would be interested how did you come into those conclusions based on my plotting - it would be nice to learn this (too).

.. and the real question is: what mistake did I make? :smile:
 

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bernard_L

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It would interesting so see this kind of comparison on films too.
Yes there is! See: https://www.fotoimport.no/filmtest/filmFP4.html
Select a film and compare developers, pairwise. Or select a developer and compare films, pairwise. My conclusion from these curves is that there are a few bad combination, most are OK, and there is no silver bullet; so, I can stop looking for it:wink:.
 

koraks

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.. and the real question is: what mistake did I make?
None; I made one. The datasheet I pulled up turned out to be the one for graded Fomabrom, which shows more linear curves...

Koraks: I would be interested how did you come into those conclusions based on my plotting - it would be nice to learn this (too).
Basically it's a matter of looking at the curves and then specifically at a few properties:
* The toe, which in paper contains the (very) light values/low densities. As you can see particularly in your first image (the second is a little less obvious in this respect), the grade 0 curve for Fomabrom becomes noticeably less steep towards the lowest densities (i.e. it exhibits a long toe). This means that the very high light values become less distinguished, as an equal change in exposure in these high values results in less change in density compared to the middle of the curve (which is steeper).
* The shoulder, which is similar to the toe but then for the high densities i.e. deep shadows. Again looking at the Fomabrom curve but this time the one for grade 3, you can see that the shoulder becomes less steep at around 1.50logD. This means that given the same increase in exposure leads to less increase in density compared to the steeper lower end of the same curve.
I have plotted it in your second image by means of illustration:
Fomabrom%20curve.png

The red set of tangential lines is for the Fomabrom grade 0 curve, clearly demonstrating the difference in steepness (i.e. contrast) between the toe and the middle part of the curve. The blue set of tangential lines for the Fomabrom 3 curve demonstrates the difference in steepness (i.e. contrast) between the shoulder of that curve and its straight middle part. This illustration also shows that the blue shoulder tangent for grade 3 is similar in steepness (a tad steeper, but not all that much) to the red tangent for the middle part of the grade 0 curve.
As you can tell, the placement of the shoulder and toe tangents is somewhat arbitrary, as the contrast changes continuously in those parts of the curve; the effect is more or less pronounced depending on what point in the toe or shoulder you are examining.

Concerning the shoulder of the grade 3 curve, this is the part that as a printer would worry me most, for the reason that the human eye has a bit more trouble discerning density differences in low light values (i.e. shadows), so a lack of contrast in shadows is usually perceived as more pronounced as the same lack of contrast in high values (highlights). We are pretty good at determining the difference between pure white and just off-white, but we as humans do a pretty bad job at discerning pure black and something that approaches pure black. When examining negatives, this becomes even more problematic as the shadows in the print are the thin parts of the negatives, so when looking at the negative, we can easily see quite well the shadow gradation in our negative (i.e. the low-density areas), while when we print this, this contrast will be less pronounced to our eyes. Add to this my personal preference for good distinction in shadow values and the Fomabrom grade 3 curve becomes a bit problematic at lest for me personally.

Perhaps this also helps to explain my preference for overexposing negatives (in films such as Foma400, which we discussed recently) in order to push the shadow areas a bit upwards in the film curve so I get good contrast in the shadows, as they are particularly challenging to translate well to paper for the reasons outlined above.
 
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radiant

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@koraks thank you so much (again) for detailed description. Now I understand! Basically the "linear" part should be as long as possible - and that means toe and shoulder are short? And contrast is determined with the tangential line angle.

If I compare Ilford grade 3 and Fomabrom grade 5 curves they look pretty similar - only difference is the needed exposure to reach certain densities. Does this mean that we get same charasteristics on both papers with grades (ilfo @3/ foma @5) but Fomabrom needs more exposure? I mean in contrast response? Fomabrom at grade 5 has a bit less steep toe, but if we forget that? Both have about same tangential angle..

I would like to compare these to some "Rolls Royce" of papers - which one of the papers is the real king?
 

koraks

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Yes, foma grade 5 tracks Ilford grade 5 quite well, but a distinct difference is in the shoulder (shadows) of the Ilford which would have more 'pop'. You can't say much about exposure as both sets of curves are relative to just reaching some density for both papers. You'd have to do some exposure tests to get an absolute comparison. The reason why the foma curve is shifted to the right is because a little more of the toe is included in the plot.
 
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radiant

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Yes, foma grade 5 tracks Ilford grade 5 quite well, but a distinct difference is in the shoulder (shadows) of the Ilford which would have more 'pop'. You can't say much about exposure as both sets of curves are relative to just reaching some density for both papers. You'd have to do some exposure tests to get an absolute comparison. The reason why the foma curve is shifted to the right is because a little more of the toe is included in the plot.

This is getting too interesting!

We would need a "delta-change" plot of these graphs actually - meaning calculating delta with certain resolution though the plot and then plotting just the change in delta. Hmm .. :smile:
 

koraks

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A good start would be to just have some good actual measurements of a few papers. But...time consuming, and while I like peering at charts, I don't much like performing endless tests :wink:
 

john_s

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I found this interesting:

http://www.darkroomautomation.com/support/appnotevcworkings.pdf

The discussion of slopes at various points of the curves explains a lot.

Although I haven't made measurements of graphs of papers, I have found by trial and (much) error that I like a moderately low contrast negative (with adequate to generous exposure) so I can use a VC setting of at least moderate to a bit high contrast.
 
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radiant

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Although I haven't made measurements of graphs of papers, I have found by trial and (much) error that I like a moderately low contrast negative (with adequate to generous exposure) so I can use a VC setting of at least moderate to a bit high contrast.

That paper is scary, basically it says I cannot use VC paper :D Now I understand why my photographs look like crap :wink:

Could you explain why you like low contrast negative on VC papers, I didn't understand reason for it from the paper.
 

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Nicholas' Lindan's paper is really useful, but you shouldn't let it scare you!
There are a large number of individual things one can take from it, but if you wan't just one, it could be that historically VC papers responded a bit better (in many cases) to more exposure from blue light and less exposure from green light - i.e. a higher rather than a lower "grade" of filtration.
The paper mentions the "flat spot" in the mid-tones when one uses low contrast filtration.
So in order to avoid low contrast filtration, it is better to start with a slightly lower contrast negative than it is with a higher contrast negative.
The very newest version - the "V" version which just came out - of the Ilford Multigrade RC paper appears to have taken valuable steps toward solving the "flat spot" issue.
By the way, the references to old style papers designed for old style portraits - Hurrell and Karsh come to mind - are appropriate, but one shouldn't take too much from them. That style of portraiture is very much a specialized use, and most modern printers are looking for a more modern approach.
 
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radiant

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Yes there is! See: https://www.fotoimport.no/filmtest/filmFP4.html
Select a film and compare developers, pairwise. Or select a developer and compare films, pairwise. My conclusion from these curves is that there are a few bad combination, most are OK, and there is no silver bullet; so, I can stop looking for it:wink:.

Sorry I missed your link in discussion. That test is familiar to me but after learning some stuff it was worth re-visiting. One of most well-behaving combos is HP5 + Xtol. I have not liked HP5 @ ISO 400 scanned but maybe I should give it another go and make real prints out of it.

The ctein's "post exposure" claims that there are some golden film + paper combos out there. But is there? Only thing I remember hearing is that HP5+ is great work printing.. But is there some kind of known holy paper+film combos?
 

john_s

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.....Could you explain why you like low contrast negative on VC papers, I didn't understand reason for it from the paper.

Although I was not aware that irregularities in the local gradients were responsible for my prints being less that ideal (there were many causes!), the lower contrast, generously exposed negatives just produced better prints with less dodging and burning. The other thing that took a long while to dawn on me was that a print has to be tailored to its eventual viewing situation (light level mainly) but that is a different story.
 

bernard_L

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A good start would be to just have some good actual measurements of a few papers. But...time consuming, and while I like peering at charts, I don't much like performing endless tests :wink:
Now I'm curious and tempted to do actual measurements...
So I've measured the curves for Fomabrom Variant 111, which is the paper I use.

Circles are measured data points. The curve is a least-squares spline, which is not required to pass exactly through all points, esp. when they seem to be discrepant. The red diamonds are the defining points for ANSI/ISO(R) at B+F+0.04 and 0.9*Dmax.

Remarks.
  • Grade 0 is nice and linear.
  • Grades 1,2,3 show a dual-slope curve, with the lower half having a smaller slope; as if the contrast increase concerns only the upper part of the curve (dark tones.
  • Grade 4 has the same ANSI/ISO(R) as grade 3; that appears to be due to an extended toe that pushes the B+F+0.04 point to the left
Despite (or because) of the peculiarities of these curves, I've had pleasant results with Foma papers. In effect, the mid-tones are raised to lighter values than where they would be with a linear curve.

I can see the same effect of dual slopes in intermediate grades in the datasheets of the (defunct) MCC paper; see their datasheet. And possibly also in MGB Classic, although it's hard to be sure because the graph is small and the curve lines are thick.

Nicholas' Lindan's paper is really useful, but you shouldn't let it scare you!
There are a large number of individual things one can take from it, but if you wan't just one, it could be that historically VC papers responded a bit better (in many cases) to more exposure from blue light and less exposure from green light - i.e. a higher rather than a lower "grade" of filtration.
The paper mentions the "flat spot" in the mid-tones when one uses low contrast filtration.
That is not supported by y measurementy of Grade 0. Possibly because Mr Nicholas Lindan has something to sell?


Fomabrom_Variant_111_grade_0.png
Fomabrom_Variant_111_grade_1.png
Fomabrom_Variant_111_grade_2.png
Fomabrom_Variant_111_grade_3.png
Fomabrom_Variant_111_grade_4.png
Fomabrom_Variant_111_grade_5.png
 

koraks

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That is excellent @bernard_L, many thanks for this valuable addition!
I'd very much like to see all curves in a combined plot; I think that would create some additional insights into how the grades relate to each other.
 

bernard_L

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Metadata I should have included in my previous post:
  • Stouffer wedge T3110
  • Indicated logE is relative to wedge clear base.
  • Baseplate of Beseler 67XL, incandescent opal bulb
  • Ilford Multigrade filters
  • Dektol 1+2, 22°C, 2min
  • Macbeth TR1224 densitometer
Come to think of it, I assumed the wedge steps were 0.1D, instead of using the supplied calibration. Actually, it's close.

And an interesting quote from Henry, in his Controls in Black-and-White Photography (p.56):
The manufacturers of papers depict their various grades as shown on Figs[...] These are idealized sets of curves and indicate that the maximum black is the same for all curves. What we usually find in actual practice is a little different.​
 
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koraks

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That's brilliant, many thanks!!
This makes it all very clear to see that:
* The only discerning element between grades 0 through 2 are the shadows (and a bit of the lower midtones in 1 vs. 2). The higher midtones and highlights print virtually identically across these grades.
* Grade 4 is a slower grade 3, for all intents and purposes. With marginally more contrast in the shadows; less shouldering off past 1.4logD.
* Grade 5 interestingly is more contrasty in the midtones and highlights than #4, but not in the (very) deep shadows.

It's a pity I don't own a densitometer (and don't quite trust a scanner in this role) as I'm very tempted to plot some curves myself with my light source and preferred developer(s).
 

koraks

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Few of the papers we have compared here work best at low contrast filter and that is one of the reasons why the negatives needs to be enough dense so that we shouldn't need to use higher contrast filters
I don't follow.
* What is 'works best' - it depends on what you find desirable in a curve.
* We've seen less than a handful of papers in this thread so far.
* Insofar as any conclusions can be drawn, the curves for the foma papers seem somewhat more attractive to me at the higher grades, which would lead to the exactly opposite conclusion of what you're saying.
So I think that was a bit of a rash conclusion, to be honest.
 
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