Commercial labs color balance

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Tobywan

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I have been looking into printing color negatives with the RA-4 process. Everything I've read and seen on YouTube so far shows making test prints and viewing them through color viewing filters then repeating until the color balance is right. I got to wondering( it's a bad habit) how commercial labs handled this process. I'm reasonably sure they didn't do this for each frame of a roll of film. Any insight into this would be appreciated.
 
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Commercial enlargers and printers have a densitometer calibrated for each particular film and paper combination that they use built into the light path.
 

MattKing

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There were a lot of different technical solutions used, and they varied over time.
For a considerable period the printers have included colour analyzers and logic similar to modern "matrix" meters to automatically evaluate the image and attempt to adjust colour and density accordingly. Most home scanners take the same approach. And if you have tried doing your own scanning, you will know that those systems were and are not perfect!
For a while, when volumes were high, the pro labs used video analysis which allowed operators to preview and then adjust exposure and colour balance before actually printing.
I worked as a machine operator in a lab that did printing for pros. The Durst roll paper printer I used had a test strip mode. The machine evaluated each negative and printed a 1 inch diagonal test strip of the central part of the image. After the set of test strips were processed, I then evaluated each one, determined appropriate adjustments, marked them on the face of the test strips, and then used the machine to print in full each negative. The machine was used about 2/3 for roll proofs, and 1/3 for individual machine enlargements.
Some of the low price high volume consumer labs used rough guesses and a Ouija board to adjust prints (just joking!).
The feedback loop of test print, adjust using filters, test print, finalize adjustments, prepare final print is actually easier and quicker than you might think, once you have done a fair bit of it - I fairly quickly got so I didn't need to use the viewing filters, and almost always just needed to do the first test.
 

DREW WILEY

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Start with a very carefully exposed master negative of something like a MacBeth Color Checker chart and use this to either calibrate home lab results or check commercial quality. It's better than just having a gray card in a token scene. Pro labs differ depending on both personnel competence and equipment maintenance. But if they want to stay in business they need to be consistent. Critical color evaluations need to be made by a trained eye. That takes experience - no way around that. The advantage of doing it yourself is that you do not need to do it in high volume like a commercial operation, so your own set of eyes is all you truly need, not a color densitometer etc.
 

Mr Bill

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I got to wondering( it's a bad habit) how commercial labs handled this process. I'm reasonably sure they didn't do this for each frame of a roll of film.

They did if you wanted the best quality, and paid for it.

Generally speaking there were two classes of commercial labs - amateur labs (catering to amateur photographers) and pro labs (catering to pro photographers). Pro labs of any decent size would use video analyzers, as mentioned by Matt. 1970s or so these would be Kodak VCNAs, and later PVACs, each costing about as much as a small house. A skilled operator could dial in to within 5CC of color which was generally good enough for "proof" prints, and perhaps a lower cost pro product. A grade higher pro product would be rebalanced by hand, if needed, etc. Higher yet would be critically evaluated, and you would pay for it. At the highest level the printer might be making "masks" to make subtle improvements.

Amateur labs used the sort of machines as per odell1618photography. The earliest ones used a 3-color sensor under the negative that would automatically control the exposure (including color). (It doesn't work like the light sources you are reading about.) These sensors would integrate the total light of each color, then shut each off as it was satisfied. The idea was that the average scene would roughly average out to a lightish gray tone (much like an 18% gray card). (Obviously certain scenes don't follow this rule.) First generation 1-hour lab printer machines worked like this; the operator had override buttons to bias the exposure and color as they saw fit. The biggest breakthrough in this realm was the Agfa MSC mini-lab printer which introduced the first scanner, allowing the machine to do much better color adjustment, as well as find the negative edges, allowing automatic film advance.

For you, you should listen to Drew. As a note, I've worked with dozens of professional color correctors - not printers who also color correct, but people who spent the better part of the day calling out corrections to test prints - and none of these people ever used the viewing filters. Except when a member of management was second-guessing their correction, then the filters become a management education tool. Best way to learn color is probably to print yourself a color ring-around - a set of color variations in a couple of strength levels - then let this be your guide. The viewing light can be pretty critical; absolutely do not use CFL bulbs, nor any version of eco-friendly fluorescent. For a reality check, view by window light.

As a note, all of these systems relied on having a system adjustment known as "printer slope." This was set up using what are called "printer setup negatives," commonly known on the internet as "Shirleys." This deals with color shifts, largely attributed to paper reciprocity failure, as print exposures change due to over and underexposed negatives. It won't be that big a deal to you, as you'll be hand balancing everything based on tests. But it does hurt to try to keep a fixed exposure time as you make your corrections.
 
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Tobywan

Tobywan

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Thanks everyone for the info. Doesn't sound like there's any kind of magic machine that I can afford to do it automatically, just make lots of test strips until I catch on.
 

foc

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As has been mentioned above, a trained eye is a great help.

In any lab, pro or amateur, time is money. So you get what you pay for. Having said that, if you are looking for machine prints from either pro or amateur lab chances are they are using the same or very similar equipment. If the neg is not being optically printed, then it will be scanned by a professional film scanner (not your epson flatbed) and these scanners are very good and have sophisticated software. BUT like any piece of equipment, they can make a wrong colour or density assessment. That is where a good operator makes the difference. They can override and make what they think is the correct colour and density.

The trained eye reminds me of a lab I worked in in the 1970's and the durst printers had limited colour assessment and slope. We would do a ringaround, which was a set of prints with a colour correction in each one and then a density correction. A bit like this.
shirley-girl.jpg


After doing enough of these type of prints, your eye is soon trained in to seeing the amount of colour correction needed.
 

btaylor

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Back in the day when RA4 was a process for us amateur darkroom workers, suppliers and consumers were all looking to come up with a machine to make that “perfect” color print on the first try. As others have said here, if you are making your own prints at home the best color analyzers are your experience and your own eyes. Long ago when I didn’t do my own color and needed a great print I went to the custom lab where an experienced operator would make a few prints to nail the color and density. Machine prints didn’t cut it.
Years later when I have gotten back into it a practiced eye, carefully exposed and processed test negatives and some color viewing filters did the trick. It is surprisingly easy. Devote a box of paper to get up to speed and you’ll do great. Make your process as consistent as possible to eliminate variables.
 

MattKing

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Just so you know...
If your film development is within spec, your enlarger is voltage stabilized, and your print processing is consistent, you will find that your standard filter pack (or colour settings) will provide good colour prints from most of your negatives.
The most common exceptions will be due to changes in the light illuminating the subject.
One colour balancing trick that I always found useful was to look carefully at a part of the scene that shows a transition from highlight to midtone to shadow - the area between cheek to throat on a person is an example. If you have a need to adjust the colour, the need will show most clearly in that transition.
 

AgX

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The essential issue at automated printing (and to some extend manually controlled printing) is to differ between an unwanted and a wanted colour hue.

The wanted hue may be the original hue (at standard lighting) or a intended effect by lighting, painting, filtration.



You in your home darkroom with your selfexposed negative thus have so much advantage over any lab.
 
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John Salim

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Equipment and processing you or a lab use must be of a good standard, but the weakest link will always be an inexperienced pair of eyes !
When we did commercial colour printing, we'd do any amount of tests until we were completely satisfied.

I remember a colleague telling me he once attended an advanced colour printing course at Kodak, and all the technicians attending were asked to make the best quality colour print they could ( from a standard negative )...... All were totally acceptable viewed on their own, but ALL had a slightly different colour balance when viewed all together.

John S
:cool:
 

DREW WILEY

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In an analogous trade involving industrial pigments, I trained and equipped professional color matchers. There's quite a bit to it, with no substitute for lots of experience. The psychology of color vision is just as important as the physiology because they're inter-related. And you need serious lighting control.
 

foc

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all the technicians attending were asked to make the best quality colour print they could ( from a standard negative )...... All were totally acceptable viewed on their own, but ALL had a slightly different colour balance when viewed all together.


And that was the expert eye of each technician.
Colour balance can be very subjective. Even look at flat screen tv in a sales showroom. They may all be displaying the same picture but very few will have the same colour and brightness.

I remember a wedding client giving me grief over the colour of her dress in her album.(it was called champagne). The prints looked perfect to me but I did a ring around for the client and guess what they picked? The print that was +1 button yellow.

Any way comercially prints color balance are not that good. Both prints and scan.

A few years ago I spoke to a friend of mine, whomI hadn't seen for a few years, that owns a pro lab in an other location. We were chatting about film and digital photography and I ask what equipment he was using neg and digital machine prints up to 12x18 inch.
Guess what he was using the same Fuji Frontier model as I was in my minilab. He told me that he never tells his customers as automatically they would think the quality would be inferior. ( a bit like what camera do you use?) IMO the Frontiers are very sophisticated machines with matching software and can produce high-quality prints.
 
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