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James Bleifus

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jovo said:
Digital imaging...which, although wordy to be sure, accurately describes that kind of work, should be labeled as such. Photography is a different species.

I agree. Digital imaging works for me or digital photography works. I don't have an issue with either. I can't help but wonder where the big debate was other mail vs. email. Where were the people saying that they're the same, only different methods of delivery? To be sure, the word email has changed rapidly from "electronic mail" to "E-mail" to "Email" to "email." But I never hear anyone refer to their email as mail and that's for clarity sake. We know the difference between sending a letter through the postal system and sending one over the internet. That clarity should carry over to photography and digital photography. You don't work in the darkroom if you use a computer, you work in the (symbolic) digital darkroom. Even when I was doing digital or digital hybrid I always referred to it as digital photography. I don't see the phrases as turf protection as is inferred in the blog, I see them as speaking or writing transparently.

Cheers,

James
 

Flotsam

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James M. Bleifus said:
I can't help but wonder where the big debate was other mail vs. email.
Oh No he dih-int!
Don't go there, James.

E-photography vs. snail photography

Aughh!!!
 

Bob F.

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He really has not thought this one through. He says something at the end that is always parroted by the digital imagers in one form or another and it boils down to: "it's the end image that is important". No it ain't! By that logic, a painting is a photograph, an etching is a photograph, indeed any image is a photograph.

I find it strange that it's the traditionally based photographers that are accused of "turf guarding" and yet it's the digital workers who are the ones insisting on using an inaccurate term. What on earth is WRONG with "Digital Photography" or "Digital Imaging" as a description? They must think there's something wrong or they would not resist it so much.

Old-time computer geeks will know what a "hacker" was originally. That battle was lost because ignorant and lazy journalists used words they didn't understand and flooded the media with an inaccurate term until it came to mean something else, twisting the original positive meaning through 180 degrees. The same will happen to "photography" which will come to mean any image created with a digital imaging machine and manipulated and printed via computer. It will be for "real" photographers to come up with a new name for themselves... He who shouts loudest, wins.


Bob.
 

Jeremy

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I don't argue with digitographers because I don't care what they have to say. Photography for me is an obsessive hobby and if I am not having fun then I am not going to do it. Shooting film and making pd prints is what I enjoy (though for the smaller formats I enjoy digital negatives more than traditional enlarged negs) and to add to the fun I am going to be doing some glossy silver prints.
 
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And some very fine silver halide crystalographs, indeed. I won't tell anybody about your "Digisix" meter!

:tongue:

David A. Goldfarb said:
I rather like to think of myself as a "silver halide crystalographer." That way I can stop people on the street and ask if they mind my making a silver halide crystalograph of them, and can invite people to look at my silver halide crystalographs.
:D
 

David A. Goldfarb

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HenceForthWith said:
And some very fine silver halide crystalographs, indeed. I won't tell anybody about your "Digisix" meter!

:tongue:

:D

SHHHHHH!!!
 

Dave Parker

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Well, here is what Merriam-Webster says about the subject:

Main Entry:

pho·tog·ra·phy
Pronunciation: f&-'tä-gr&-fE
Function: noun
: the art or process of producing images on a sensitized surface (as a film) by the action of radiant energy and especially light

A digital sensor is not a sensitized surface, but an energized computer chip.

Seems to be a pretty defined difference here, The term photography by definition refers to film and paper as paper is nothing more that a sensitized surface on a paper base (IE:film), the term digital imaging refers to image capture on a energized computer chip and the paper used in inkjet printing is not a sensitized surface, so the terms Photography and Digital imaging seem to be pretty clearly defined, despite the beliefs of alot of people, I don't feel it really needs to be defined any differently.

Dave
 

Ole

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David A. Goldfarb said:
I rather like to think of myself as a "silver halide crystalographer." That way I can stop people on the street and ask if they mind my making a silver halide crystalograph of them, and can invite people to look at my silver halide crystalographs.

When I took crystalography at the university, we used "hard" X-rays. I hope you're not using that for portraits!
 

David A. Goldfarb

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Only for more intimate portraits.
 

Bighead

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roteague said:
Thanks for everyone's comments. I felt that Brooks lumped all film lovers into a category of "out of date" oldtimers who all automatically rebel at digital people calling themselves "photographers". Hmm, I wonder if Brooks will read this thread.

My friend Matthew True, is having his first art show next week (Kansas City MO).. He is an "Analog" Photographer and is 21 years old.... People of all ages and experience levels are choosing traditional methods... I chose traditional methods because of the process. I spend 8 hours a day, being lazy in front of a computer.... What traits would carry over to my digital darkrrom, if I had one? Its all about the organic process of seeing the light, moving it, shaking it. The smell of the fix.

And as far as what digital photographers call themselves? They can call themselves dill pickles if they want... It doesn't change the fact that I like sliced digital photographers on my sandwich...
 
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It's sad really... Each group justifying it's existance to the other and dividing up an art form that is indeed growing and has enthusiastic users. One where we all are using different materials to express ourselves creatively.

Analog... Digital... Whatever comes next... Who cares!

joe
 

Dave Parker

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Joe Symchyshyn said:
It's sad really... Each group justifying it's existance to the other and dividing up an art form that is indeed growing and has enthusiastic users. One where we all are using different materials to express ourselves creatively.

Analog... Digital... Whatever comes next... Who cares!

joe

Joe,

I don't really see it this way, the analog photography art form has been pretty well defined for over 100 years now.

The digital imaging rhelm seems to be the group searching for an identification and justification.

Dave
 

Aggie

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Satinsnow said:
The digital imaging rhelm seems to be the group searching for an identification and justification.

Dave

Bingo! To justify themselves any way they can without the term digital attached. Why? Why the need to be anything but what they are? Is not accepting what you are a path to growth? Ok psycho babble off!
 

Tom Duffy

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There's a great line in the movie Black Hawk Down. The experienced "Delta Boy" talking to a newly minted Ranger squad leader says, "You know what I think, I think it don't matter what I think." That, to me, is one wisdom laden statement.

All the traditional photographic terms will be usurped by the digital imagers and rage as we might, there can only be one end to this. Hopefully we can take some solace in fighting the good fight, but anyone thinking they have input into what a digital imager calls himself is self delusional.
Take care,
Tom
 
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Satinsnow said:
The digital imaging rhelm seems to be the group searching for an identification and justification.
Dave,

I don't see the photographers in the digital world as the ones searching for identification and justification... What I have been seeing is analog photographers searching for ways to pigeonhole people based on equipment and material choices. It is a turf war indeed.

Even before digital techniques revealed themselves, there were people out there dividing up analog (which was only known as photography back then) into what people used, and were doing...

Oh... A platinum print... BEAUTIFUL!!...
Oh... A fiber print... Great...
Oh... An RC print... Hmmmm...

Didn't matter if the platinum print was good or not... The very fact that the materials made it better... (in some minds) Don't believe me? Check out some of the crap on eBay being produced and selling BECAUSE it's a platinum print. Seems to be that it comes down to as long as others are doing it the same way we are, we're comfortable... If not, we're threatened.

It's analog photographers looking at a new way to justify somehow why the way they do things is "better" and more pure than someone else...

The people that I know that shoot digital are enthusiastic about what they are doing and don't really seem to care one bit what people shooting film are doing. As analog photographers, we seem to be keeping more of an eye on their world than the other way around. But maybe that's just it... Maybe we wish that they did care more about what we are doing and think of us on high for these traditional methods... Not discounting them so easily and instead looking at us with reverance.

I used to get caught up in the it's us vs them debate... I have decided instead to have a more open mind and accept all forms as benefitting the ultimate goal of image creation. All the while, sticking to what works for me... And for me, that's LF B&W FILM based photography. That doesn't make me better, it just makes me me.

joe
 
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Tom Duffy said:
Hopefully we can take some solace in fighting the good fight, but anyone thinking they have input into what a digital imager calls himself is self delusional.
Well said Tom!

joe :smile:
 

Jim Chinn

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I agree that we may have no input into what a pixelographer may call himself, but as a large and vocal group we do have the ability to influence how critics, collectors and gallery owners refer to various imaging methods.

One thing I am concerned about is how digital will effect the market for traditional photography. I would pose this scenario to those who disagree or marginalize my idea:

You have spent years refining your skill in the darkroom and with the camera to produce exquisite platinum prints or silver chloride contacts or any other traditional process. You go to a gallery with your portfolio. You show it to the gallery owner who tells you I already have some very nice digital platinum images from another photographer. You look at the portfolio and realize they are simply toned via filtering and photoshop, not true platinum or palladium.
But what is a person to do? I mean a photograph is a photograph regardless or the process, right? Both portfolios consist of platinum images. Your effort and experience are worth no more then some paper getting shoved through an inkjet printer.

Well of course the answer is wrong! There is a greater intrinsic value to your work and craftsmanship. But we already see this all the time on the internet with the blatently false and misleading claims and labeling of images on various web sites. People making totally unprovable claims as to longevity of prints, calling them carbon process, or digital platinum and always calling everything photographs when by definition they are not.

By pointing out the difference between the two mediums using seperate titles or labels will help to keep photography as a unique and valuable tool for artistic expression.
 
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Jim Chinn said:
There is a greater intrinsic value to your work and craftsmanship.... ...By pointing out the difference between the two mediums using seperate titles or labels will help to keep photography as a unique and valuable tool for artistic expression.
Jim,

I believe that there is a perceived added value on objects made by hand. I'll use this analogy...

I made a coffee table for my home.

I could take a set of plans and put it into a computer and have a machine chop it all up and assemble everything to very high tolerances, or I could cut everything by myself and make a few mistakes here and there. Technically the computer made object would be better in some regards... But if I were to sell them both, the hand-made object would possibly be worth more to some people. (especially if I were either famous, dead or both)

Either way... They're both a coffee table.

Personally, I prefer to call myself a photographer instead of...

A photographer specializing in large format black and white analog photography (specifically 4x5) processing my film by hand in pyrogallol based film developer and producing toned prints in fiber based gelatin silver or pt/pd using archival methods for all.

I think I'll stick with photographer.

As for your concern with the misleading and false claims as to image type and longevity... Lying is lying... I agree. People should be educated about what they buy... But most buy because they like it and it's not something they can do themselves or it matches their decor. It's other photographers that like all the technical details behind the image. Besides, we don't buy as much photography as we'd like to convince ourselves.

joe
 
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roteague

roteague

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Jim Chinn said:
You have spent years refining your skill in the darkroom and with the camera to produce exquisite platinum prints or silver chloride contacts or any other traditional process. You go to a gallery with your portfolio. You show it to the gallery owner who tells you I already have some very nice digital platinum images from another photographer. You look at the portfolio and realize they are simply toned via filtering and photoshop, not true platinum or palladium.

One of things that I have done, is I include a tri-fold brochure with all the prints I have for sale. These brochures describe the print making process that I use, stress the quality of materials that I use, as well as describing the image itself.
 

chuck94022

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Jim Chinn said:
I agree that we may have no input into what a pixelographer may call himself, but as a large and vocal group we do have the ability to influence how critics, collectors and gallery owners refer to various imaging methods.

One thing I am concerned about is how digital will effect the market for traditional photography. I would pose this scenario to those who disagree or marginalize my idea:

You have spent years refining your skill in the darkroom and with the camera to produce exquisite platinum prints or silver chloride contacts or any other traditional process. You go to a gallery with your portfolio. You show it to the gallery owner who tells you I already have some very nice digital platinum images from another photographer. You look at the portfolio and realize they are simply toned via filtering and photoshop, not true platinum or palladium.
But what is a person to do? I mean a photograph is a photograph regardless or the process, right? Both portfolios consist of platinum images. Your effort and experience are worth no more then some paper getting shoved through an inkjet printer.

Well of course the answer is wrong! There is a greater intrinsic value to your work and craftsmanship. But we already see this all the time on the internet with the blatently false and misleading claims and labeling of images on various web sites. People making totally unprovable claims as to longevity of prints, calling them carbon process, or digital platinum and always calling everything photographs when by definition they are not.

By pointing out the difference between the two mediums using seperate titles or labels will help to keep photography as a unique and valuable tool for artistic expression.


Jim Chinn raises an issue that in fact this community can address, albeit with significant work.

Other industries have faced similar issues, and to address them, form industry organizations which define and set standards for products or processes they wish to protect. Some real estate brokers are called Realtors(TM) for that very reason. It is marketing, but also sets recogniseable standards of performance. It increases customer awareness and trust.

The analog photographic industry could come together formally to define accepted standards for processes - for example, it could define a Certified Handmade Platinum Print as being derived from a film-based negative or positive image, contact printed using wet Platinum/Palladium emulsions hand applied to an arbitrary support. A formal organization would further specify the requirements for certification, but if carefully done would not constrain the traditional craftsman.

Similarly, definitions could be created for image capture processes and other elements of production.

This industry organization could trademark its certifications, offer certification to photographers that join the organization and apply (perhaps through a process involving endorsement by existing members and production of sample results of the photographer's product). Further, the organization would market its practices to galleries and lobby or incent them to formally recognise and identify certified artists and products.

The presence of cheap digital imitations of classic processes is more than enough justification for such an organization. Done well, traditional photographers would be able to operate with full freedom of expression, while receiving support from the organization and participating galleries to insure their efforts are properly recognized and not devalued by imitators.

Many art buyers would not spend the additional money for a certified product, but it is likely such a certificate would assure the buyer of the real value of the object and the likelyhood that an investment would be worthwhile. Buyers of non-certified products would at least know that the item they are buying may not conform to accepted standards for specified processes.

Sounds bureaucratic, but it is how many industries work, and it could work for this community. Any volunteers to put together such an organization?

-chuck
 

Sean

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Personally, I prefer to call myself a photographer instead of...

A photographer specializing in large format black and white analog photography (specifically 4x5) processing my film by hand in pyrogallol based film developer and producing toned prints in fiber based gelatin silver or pt/pd using archival methods for all.

I think I'll stick with photographer.

I hear what you are saying and that has always worked in the past, however in the last several years the word "photographer" and "photograph" are getting way out of hand. Look around you and see what the future is bringing to the meaning of the words "photographer" & "photograph". One example is that we call ourselves "photographers" who make "photographs", well In most new computer videogames now your game character can have a camera, and he can take "photographs" inside the video game. They can then be inkjet printed, etc. This makes the videogame player a "photographer" taking "photographs". Who are we to say he is not a photographer, we're all photographers right? Should we say, "uh hold on a second buddy, I don't think so", or should we accept him as a "photographer"? He's a photographer, you're a photographer? That's just a bit much for me to stomach. I'd say he's a "Virtual Photographer" and just don't see anything wrong with defining his or any other type of "photography"..
 

jimgalli

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Sorry folks........I have to pretty much get in line with Mr. Jensen. Photo from photon which is particles of light, and graphy or writing. Light Writing. That is what photographers do irregardless of the machine they use to capture the light reflections with. After that it's all a matter of choices isn't it. I adore my digital camera! What a fabulous tool to supply my customers with many many of their needs. It's win win in very many ways when it's the correct tool for the job! I would fight to keep it.

Enter intrinsic value. I heartily agree with most of you. From an artistic standpoint ie. trying to create a lasting work of art, digital is simply the wrong tool for that job. Certainly, I labor with my ULF cameras because I believe whole heartedly that they are the correct and perhaps only tools for the art I want to create. I don't see any change soon on the horizon. What will be interesting to watch though will be the education / rip-off of the end users. Will the folks who lay down the $$$ for the product "get it". Dunno.
 

Lee Shively

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I have several posters of painting by Georgia O'Keefe. They are perfectly good representations of the paintings with fairly faithful reproductions of the colors in the originals. I've seen Georgia O'Keefe originals. They are transcendent. My posters are merely okay.

The coffee table analogy is pretty good. Taken one step further, you could have a mold sculpted of the parts of the original handmade table. You could fill the mold with molten polycarbonate, let the molds set, pop the pieces out and assemble them. You would have a perfectly serviceable plastic table on which to put your cup of coffee or glass of Merlot. It would be a nice reproduction of the original and it would certainly be okay.

The poster is not an original painting. The plastic table is not an original hand finished wood table. Neither are original. They are simply representations. They are okay.

Digiography, pixelography...whatever...is "okay".
 

mark

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What about this organization? Having never been a member of an organization of this type, how do they get atarted? The name could not be Analogue Photographers Union. APU carries to many simpsons jokes.
 
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