Commenting on nudes: When is it "ogling" and what are its consequences?

[MurrayMinchin]

Holy Moly! I cannot believe how much this thread has grown and how it has diverged from Scott's initial point. Scott's initial point was not that nudes should not be in the gallery, or that people should not "feel" something when looking at them. It wasn't even that they shouldn't ogle. It was...that they should control what they say publicly! Cripes, guys... you argue about your "rights" to do this, and your "rights" to do that, but for Pete's sake, can't you control what you type openly??? I mean, if you want to send a pm to the photographer and say "Man, I'd love to carry your equipment around," or "dang, how do I get a job as your assistant so I can hang around gorgeous naked women", that's fine... send the pm. But don't type that sort of thing openly.
It's not about your "rights," it's not about your sexual preference, it's not about "boys being boys" it's about having a little respect for the rest of this population. I agree with DrPablo... it's much easier to type if you use more than one "appendage." Grow up (past 14) or not, that's each person's decision, but exercise a wee bit of civility.

Thanks for that! !

Murray

 

[Ed Sukach]

Peggy Lipton....yummmm....

Hire the girl!!

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

It was??

Have you visited your nearby Borders lately?
On my last visit, I discovered a volume compiled - and dedicated to - the "Tiajuana Bibles" - those definitely pornographic, crudely drawn, comic books of the '40's and '50's - with a *very* innocent (looking, at least) girl deeply engrossed in reading it.

Yes, but now it's "history" rather than "pornography."

 

[Ed Sukach]

OK - I give up!

Who will be the one/s to decide what is "appropriate" - and what is not?

- And when will we find out? When we get the "finger-breaking message"?

How many here will choose the only possible "play-it-safe" plan - and not comment at all?

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Ed- the poster of the comment needs to decide if it is appropriate or not. Nobody is going to set rules. There will not be finger-breaking. Everyone here has the ability to figure out for themselves if what they're about to post could be misconstrued or offensive. We all make these kinds of self-censorship decisions every day - whether or not to post to a thread that is fun to read, but is a total train wreck and would suck us down with it if we joined in, to repeat that sexist joke around the office in front of people whose sensibilities we don't know, etc. You're not arguing for freedom of thought, you're arguing for freedom FROM thought.

 

[wfe]

I can honestly say that I have not and would not make any posts or comments that would be personal in nature or in any way offend someone, however some very appropriate comments that I have made have been mentioned (no reference to my name) in this thread as being inappropriate. Clearly this was someone's interpretion, incorrect I may add, of what I was saying. So I'm finding myself feeling judged and censored and discouraged from participation.

Regards,
Bill

 

[bill schwab]

I'd be happy to show you multiple examples from the galleries of female nudes that are equally as provocative/suggestive as my one image, but draw NO negative commentary.

The photograph, IMO, was hardly "provocative" other than the fact it provoked many "wink-wink, nudge-nudge" comments of which you are complaining. More so than ANY nude female photograph has on this site in my memory. Including those from you Scott, the poster. ("I don't want to "touch" that one...") ("... I wish... to be that thin, and that well endowed...) ("He really is that big.")

"Hypocrisy?"?

 

[Ian Leake]

Holy Moly! I cannot believe how much this thread has grown and how it has diverged from Scott's initial point. Scott's initial point was not that nudes should not be in the gallery, or that people should not "feel" something when looking at them. It wasn't even that they shouldn't ogle. It was...that they should control what they say publicly! Cripes, guys... you argue about your "rights" to do this, and your "rights" to do that, but for Pete's sake, can't you control what you type openly??? I mean, if you want to send a pm to the photographer and say "Man, I'd love to carry your equipment around," or "dang, how do I get a job as your assistant so I can hang around gorgeous naked women", that's fine... send the pm. But don't type that sort of thing openly.
It's not about your "rights," it's not about your sexual preference, it's not about "boys being boys" it's about having a little respect for the rest of this population. I agree with DrPablo... it's much easier to type if you use more than one "appendage." Grow up (past 14) or not, that's each person's decision, but exercise a wee bit of civility.

Case in point, you "boys" have managed to pretty much trivialise every comment made by the women who posted here... with the exception of Cheryl. Gee. Go figure.:rolleyes:

Jeanette, at the risk of being accused of trivialising your comment (which is not my intent), can you point to anywhere that anyone has said, "Man, I'd love to carry your equipment around," or "dang, how do I get a job as your assistant so I can hang around gorgeous naked women"? I agree that if anyone were to say that then that could be seen as excessively crude, but I've never seen anything like that here.

It's well established that many more technical comments are made when the picture is of a pretty woman, and that many comments compliment the model. But those are in a completely different league from the examples you've just quoted.

 

[Ed Sukach]

...You're not arguing for freedom of thought, you're arguing for freedom FROM thought.

You've provided a good example ... I AM arguing for freedom of expression. Do you think I do not think - seriously consider - everything I write here? there is a definite difference between Freedom of expression - and - dodging resposiblity under the banner of "no need to think".

In fact, *I* (n.b. "I") would appreciate LESS thought - and more "gut reaction" - form the collective subconscious of those participating. In my book, the emotions are the base of art... NOT carefully thought-out logic.

This is like playing a game without knowing anything of the rules. The only way to be "safe" is to not play.

 

[DrPablo]

That statement requires an acceptance comple... nearly completely, contrary to my experience. How did you reach that conclusion? Do you have any support for that statement - survey results, analyses of of written opinions ... "Kinsey" - type reports ...? What?

That is one tremendous example of a sweeping generality. I disagree, but it would be an enormous task to offer anything even remotely acceptable as a support for MY view, and I will suggest you would have the same burden. "Everyone else" - are you referring to the 20K+ participants in APUG, North American USAens, the population of the entire Earth...?

Yes, actually, I have a survey from a CDC working group of the entire population of the United States that unanimously supports my statement that we don't enjoy listening to one another's internal sex dialogue. Interestingly there is an APUG subgroup in the study that does not differ from the general population.

This is filed right next to another study from the CDC showing the majority of Americans despise people so lacking in social skills that their sole response to others' social intuition is a childlike demand for published evidence.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

The photograph, IMO, was hardly "provocative" other than the fact it provoked many "wink-wink, nudge-nudge" comments of which you are complaining. More so than ANY nude female photograph has on this site in my memory. Including those from you Scott, the poster. ("I don't want to "touch" that one...") ("... I wish... to be that thin, and that well endowed...) ("He really is that big.")

"Hypocrisy?"?

Bill -

No. If you paid attention to what was going on in that discussion, I chose to respond to the commentary with calm reserve and the occasional bit of humor, considering how under attack I was at the time. People were quitting the site, I received a death threat. Instead of lashing out at folks making uncomfortable jokes about the image, I laughed along with them so they wouldn't think I was some kind of uber-serious uptight ass.

 

[gr82bart]

This is filed right next to another study from the CDC showing the majority of Americans despise people so lacking in social skills that their sole response to others' social intuition is a childlike demand for published evidence.

Ouch! Stings like Murder Ball.

So a question to anyone that knows the answer to this: Is a veiled personal attack masked within very clever and witty intellectual prose acceptable but "Now I know why I turn my A/C off during a model shoot - nyuck-nyuck-nyuck" not? Because the latter is crude and the former quite elegantly written (I thought it was quite brilliant actually)?

Regards, Art.

 

[jstraw]

I'll going on record that anyone that might quit this site over the sight of a penis has my blessing. Please go.

 

[bill schwab]

I laughed along with them so they wouldn't think I was some kind of uber-serious uptight ass.

Just being one of the boys... I understand. Sorry, but I still don't really see the difference.

 

[Ed Sukach]

Yes, actually, I have a survey from a CDC working group of the entire population of the United States that unanimously supports my statement that we don't enjoy listening to one another's internal sex dialogue. Interestingly there is an APUG subgroup in the study that does not differ from the general population.

This is filed right next to another study from the CDC showing the majority of Americans despise people so lacking in social skills that their sole response to others' social intuition is a childlike demand for published evidence.

Interesting. "CDC" - the Center for Disaease Control"? Seems a tad off-topic for them, but I am really interested. Where can I get/ access a copy of this survey?

Did I read this correctly ... "There is an APUG subgroup involved"??? Has APUG reached the lavel of something like a commnunicable disease?

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Just being one of the boys... I understand. Sorry, but I still don't really see the difference.

Bill, I would think you would see the difference between response to duress with humor and off-the-cuff commentary. Or are you saying that "straight" speech is ok but "gay" speech is not? Each individual comment is unique, and circumstantially may be inoffensive, or at least understandable. Taken in totality, however, it paints a different picture. Or are you saying that the totality of three comments in the one thread (one of which I would argue you have misconstrued) are equal to the totality of commentary on the flipside?

 

[jbj]

Nudes have been used for thousands of years in art, but only recently has nudity been called offensive etc., ...truly unfortunate. The only people who take offense or see sexual deviance in a nude are those that are deviants themselves.

 

[Katharine Thayer]

Jeanette, at the risk of being accused of trivialising your comment (which is not my intent), can you point to anywhere that anyone has said, "Man, I'd love to carry your equipment around," or "dang, how do I get a job as your assistant so I can hang around gorgeous naked women"? I agree that if anyone were to say that then that could be seen as excessively crude, but I've never seen anything like that here.

Goodness, I've only been here a short time, but I've seen several such comments. I don't have time to search for them to prove it to you, and at any rate they may well have been made to Sanders' images that have been removed so couldn't be found anyway (although for some reason my memory wants to say that one or two of them were posted in forum threads, not in gallery comments). But at any rate they stuck in my mind and added to the initial negative impression I had of APUG, which I can see after reading much of this thread (I missed the middle ten pages or so) does not accurately reflect the range of attitudes here; I'm grateful to the guys who have spoken up and added some balance to my earlier impressions.

And just to clarify, since some people seem to have grossly misinterpreted (or trivialized) my earlier comments in the thread: I am not prudish about nude photos; I've taken some myself, as I said earlier, and there's no emotional valence, one way or another, that attaches to nude photos for me as long as they're not overtly pornographic, and I've seen none such here.

Furthermore, my tabulation of the statistics about views, as I also said earlier, wasn't intended to support any point of view. A cigar is just a cigar, and a number is just a number. I just thought it interesting, as a number in and of itself. Since I don't attach emotional significance to different kinds of photos, I had to see for myself that it's true that nude photos get more views than others, since I'm no more (or less) likely to click on a nude photo (male or female) than any other kind of photo. For me, the nude photo is not a sexual object which attracts or repels me because of its sexuality.

As I said, I have no opinion about what the statistic means; if the general consensus is that it means that men are compelled to look at pictures of naked women, I think that's interesting, but I have no opinion about whether that's a good thing or not, and by posting the numbers I was certainly not suggesting that there was something wrong or distasteful about nude photos getting more views than other photos. To attribute these opinions, or any opinions, to me simply because I listed some numbers, is to be putting words in my mouth and in my mind that I never wrote or even thought.
Katharine

 

[BWGirl]

Jeanette, at the risk of being accused of trivialising your comment (which is not my intent), can you point to anywhere that anyone has said, "Man, I'd love to carry your equipment around," or "dang, how do I get a job as your assistant so I can hang around gorgeous naked women"? I agree that if anyone were to say that then that could be seen as excessively crude, but I've never seen anything like that here.

It's well established that many more technical comments are made when the picture is of a pretty woman, and that many comments compliment the model. But those are in a completely different league from the examples you've just quoted.

Ian... I've been here long enough to see those exact comments in print here, in the Critique section of the Gallery. I will repeat that... I (and many others here) have seen those exact comments posted in the Critique section of the Gallery.
Go back to one of Scott's first posts... you'll notice that he references me. He does that for a really good reason... I brought up this EXACT same point back then.
It's not your fault for not knowing that. You'd have had to have been here.

 

[jd callow]

Ouch! Stings like Murder Ball.

So a question to anyone that knows the answer to this: Is a veiled personal attack masked within very clever and witty intellectual prose acceptable but "Now I know why I turn my A/C off during a model shoot - nyuck-nyuck-nyuck" not? Because the latter is crude and the former quite elegantly written (I thought it was quite brilliant actually)?

Regards, Art.

I have no answer to your question, but I am left to wonder if you aren’t forgetting that you attempt to employ the former at every opportunity.

 

[gr82bart]

JD,

Oh you know me better than that, I don't forget that at all.

Regards, Art.

 

[Dave Wooten]

Just show me

Since a lot of us are visual learners maye someone could post some new illustrative examples supporting the various views and arguments of this thread. :confused:

 

[DrPablo]

So a question to anyone that knows the answer to this: Is a veiled personal attack masked within very clever and witty intellectual prose acceptable...

It wasn't even meant to be veiled on my part. But it's more acceptable for this reason: by being oblique, it allows the situation to be defused, which I think Ed has done in his reply. So we've both retreated to the ironic, which is a nice place to live. If I'd lashed out in the way that I wanted to, it wouldn't have afforded that opportunity.

 

[jd callow]

Since a lot of us are visual learners maye someone could post some new illustrative examples supporting the various views and arguments of this thread. :confused:

My point, found earlier in the thread, is fully supported here: (there was a url link here which no longer exists), and herethere was a url link here which no longer exists)
not to blow my own horn, but I think this suports my point as well: (there was a url link here which no longer exists) there are others in this group that are more 'nude' that aren't in my apug gallery, but all try to use the figure in the manner I described.

 

[JBrunner]

I believe that the idea that prudishness on APUG is somehow a US phenomena is somewhat misplaced. If you do the math, the vocal minority of any sub group here will be largely US, because US members make up the majority of the membership. It is wonderful that APUG is an international community, but by impression, one might also assume that all wet plate photographers are US as well.

The US is the worlds largest producer of porn, and our previous president, well, we all know what went down there, so the notion that the majority in the US is prudish, is mistaken.

The incident I recall most clearly, in regard to Sanders work, was a direct attack regarding the physical attributes of the model. It wasn't prudish or sexist. It was beyond bad taste.

If this thread helps a few people become a little more thoughtful, it will have served a good purpose. I haven't read anywhere any serious suggestions of censorship, finger breaking, rule making, etc. I feel those reacting this way, are doing just that, and reacting outside the context of the thread. (well, the original direction of the subthread, split off from the OP)

The only thing I have seen seriously proposed here, is that certain persons do a little thinking. If you're beyond that, your either already there, or you have a long way to go.

Discussion is healthy, and if someone is so beyond it, there are over 32,000 other threads to peruse, without bunching up over those that are participating in this one. Thats meant constructively, not to qwell any disagreement. The "if you don't like it, just leave" thing is not what I'm trying to say.

Just random thoughts.