Commenting on nudes: When is it "ogling" and what are its consequences?

[MattKing]

Scott, apart from the public comments posted to my nudes, I received more than a few outrageous PMs from some especially strident APUG detractors, aimed at my wife as well as me, for my having photographed naked women, and my wife for having posed in some of them. No death threats, but unbelievably demeaning remarks. It's not a gender issue -- or, at least, not entirely a gender issue. Sanders

I am quoting Sanders in this post, because I think it only fair.

IMHO Scott's original post was in relation to the civility of some of the reactions to photographs depicting the nude figure.

It wasn't about rules, it wasn't about died in the wool principles which we should seek to enforce, it was a request for moderation (as compared to Moderation) and thoughtfulness.

It was an observation expressed, about the effect that some types of posting behavior might have on others. It has been supported by some, and discounted by others, but I don't see that it has ever been more than an entreaty to enter into a discussion about what might be good for this site, and lead to more enjoyment for a large number of those who participate here.

Why do I reference Sanders? Because it appears that he has been subjected to some of the worst, and most outrageous examples of the type of conduct that Scott complained about initially. And what is the result of all that? He, and Melanie have been treated in a way that no one should be treated, and all of the rest of us, have lost the benefit of being able to share in their vision (through APUG).

Take a look, Sanders isn't a subscriber any more. Unless he changes his mind, we aren't going to see any more of his work here - not just his photographs depicting nudity - all of his photographs. We probably won't see any more of Melanie's either.

This highlights the problem. As a community, we get to share. Unfortunately, if even a small minority of the community act in a way that tends to alienate someone who contributes to the community, than those who would choose to support that member lose out even more when that member chooses to leave.

Scott certainly isn't in a position to complain about someone else provoking comment. But just because he has been a bit of a provocateur in the past, doesn't mean that it is inappropriate for him to initiate a discussion about behavior that bothers him, and appears to bother others as well.

Matt

P.S. Sanders and Melanie - many of us would appreciate more of your photographs in the galleries.

 

[jd callow]

Scott, apart from the public comments posted to my nudes, I received more than a few outrageous PMs from some especially strident APUG detractors, aimed at my wife as well as me, for my having photographed naked women, and my wife for having posed in some of them. No death threats, but unbelievably demeaning remarks. It's not a gender issue -- or, at least, not entirely a gender issue. Sanders

Sanders (or anyone else), please let us know when you get these kind of pms. You can forward them to me right now. If they crossed the line we (the mod's) will act. You should not have to endure a personal attack for the images you've posted.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Sanders (or anyone else), please let us know when you get these kind of pms. You can forward them to me right now. If they crossed the line we (the mod's) will act. You should not have to endure a personal attack for the images you've posted.

Indeed, we've banned people for sending threatening PMs or e-mails to other members.

Any time someone refers to us as "the mods," though, I can't help but think of these guys--

(If you don't recognize them, go to-- http://www.chezgrae.com/modsquad/ )

 

[johnnywalker]

Awesome! A one sentence summary of the complete thread .

It's fine to think with your dick, but that doesn't mean you have to type with it.

 

[jd callow]

I want to be Link

 

[Ian Leake]

This is an international forum. The U.S. Constitution has no special status, and in any case, it only dictates what the government can or can't regulate. APUG is not the government.

We're also not talking about changing any rules here. We're talking about changing attitudes and the vibe. If the vibe makes some people feel like they shouldn't be active on forums like APUG because it's not worth the hassle, or because they feel excluded, or because they find some sophomoric comments tedious, then it would benefit all of us to think about how we might change the vibe.

I have to say David that this endless stream of [mostly US] angst over nudes gives off a vibe that makes me want to stop posting photos too. I've received lots of valuable and generous feedback from people here, along with a fair share of "she's cute" comments.

I used to think I enjoyed sharing my work here. But I have no desire for my photos or the comments people leave on them to be analysed and then used as weapons in some US-centric cultural war. Maybe I'm being overly sensitive, but I'm certainly reacting to the vibe.

 

[jd callow]

Ian,
Don't worry. I don't believe what Scott is referring to relates to being prudish, but sexiest. If the naked body makes someone uncomfortable they can easily avoid exposure. I see more issues with regard to the joke thread than the gallery with regard to things sexiest, but there is the occasional comment made in the gallery as well as image posted that is also sexiest or exploitive. The value of this thread is to remind people to think.

 

[Ian Leake]

Ian,
Don't worry. I don't believe what Scott is referring to relates to being prudish, but sexiest. If the naked body makes someone uncomfortable they can easily avoid exposure. I see more issues with regard to the joke thread than the gallery with regard to things sexiest, but there is the occasional comment made in the gallery as well as image posted that is also sexiest or exploitive. The value of this thread is to remind people to think.

I've no problem with what Scott's saying. Scott's generally one of the more considered and sensible people here, and even if I don't always agree with him I respect his opinions completely.

It's difficult to summarise the many, many posts that people have made about nudes, but I can say how it feels to me: nudes are not welcome here. Whether it's people complaining that nudes get too many hits, or accusing people who look at nudes of being ogglers, or people who talk about nudes just being a bunch of guys talking about the naked female body ("boys will be boys"), or that the sole purpose of nudes is to be sexually provocative, or posting nudes on the internet is wrong, or...

In short there is a vocal minority who make me feel uncomfortable posting here. I'm horrified at the reaction to Scott's photos of a while back - where I come from death threats are a criminal offence, not merely bad behaviour. And some of the reactions to Sanders' work were disgraceful.

It's fine to ask people to exercise restraint when they're posting comments on nudes. I also find the stronger locker room language offensive (not that I've seen any here outside the joke thread) - in its milder forms it's really quite harmless though. Maybe I've missed it, but I haven't noticed anyone asking for restraint when it comes to being rude, nasty or disrespectful to photographers or viewers of nudes. (edit: ...especially viewers.)

Perhaps I've got a slightly different perspective from most people here because I'm European. Our artists have been working with nudes for some 2,500 years now, and as a culture we are much more accepting of both male and female nudes. And as a general rule we can tell the difference between nude and naked, sex and beauty, and art and porn. (edit: ...and don't need to discuss it ad infinitum.)

Apologies for the long post, if I had more time I'd have made it shorter.

 

[gr82bart]

So I am having a hard time responding to this meandering thread and what the heck we're all at arms over. I have been writing and thinking and editing ... in the end, I am just going to write out what I will do, as at least, without meds to date, it is the only element in APUG I can control.

• I will continue to post nudes in the gallery. Female and male.
• I will continue to view images that I want to view. Why I want to view them is really none of anyone's business.
• I will continue to make comments - on any image.
• I think humour is fine and will continue to make jokes.
• I am not going to attempt to define community standards on APUG.
• I will continue to believe APUGers, including myself, are generally nice, accommodating, flawed (that is normal) human beings who have every good intention at heart and are not evil blasphemers or closet misogynists or worse.
• I will continue to think "So what?" on the number of views a nude female image gets in the APUG gallery.
• I will report anyone that threatens me with death to the mod squad and out that person. (Though to be honest, I hardly take these to be serious, as I feel these threats are often hollow)
• I will never threaten anyone with death. I mean, why give them a heads up, right? <--just kidding people!
• I will continue to voice my opinions.
• I will continue to think us boys will be boys. Let's just admit it and move on. There's nothing to be ashamed of.

Net result of the thread? Nothing, for me.

Regards, Art.

 

[gr82bart]

Scott,

Take a look at this thread: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Do you consider the exchange Ian and I had as the 'nyuck nyuck' "boys will be boys" locker room humour you find prevalent on APUG and offensive? Seriously, do tell.

Regards, Art.

 

[Ian Leake]

Art, I agree with 95% of what you've just said. I haven't done the math though so it could be 94% or 97%, I'm not sure.

I do think there's more to it than "boys will be boys" though obviously that exists (and to deny it exists denies our humanity), but that's nothing to argue over. (edit: But also to say it's merely "boys will be boys" is too bleak an outlook for me.)

Unfortunately for me the net result of this thread (which builds upon all the previous threads) is not nothing: it's a feeling of despondency. I don't think I'm going to stop posting, but I'm not sure what I'll post and how long I'll leave photos in the galleries.

By the way, I owe you an apology. I went off the scale yesterday morning. I'd had a bad night's sleep and I'm grumpy in the morning at the best of times. Sorry.

 

[gr82bart]

Art, I agree with 95% of what you've just said. I haven't done the math though so it could be 94% or 97%, I'm not sure.

Oh man, you should join the f263 club.

But also to say it's merely "boys will be boys" is too bleak an outlook for me.

Why? I guess it's a half full, half empty debate then, Ian. I don't believe "boys will be boys" is all that bleak. I think it's quite celebratory. Now I'm not saying we should go around cat calling women, being horndogs, and high 5-ing each other whenever a cutey walks by as matter normal behaviour (unless we're construction workers - with all due respect to construction workers - you know we want to be one of you guys), but I think it's OK to be playful and flirtatious when it is respectful and as long as one backs down when it becomes uncomfortable for the other person. It's really quite harmless. Seriously, it's the quiet, silent types that we need to be worried about.

Unfortunately for me the net result of this thread (which builds upon all the previous threads) is not nothing: it's a feeling of despondency.

Now this is just a shame, because it tells me that you are being bullied by folks on APUG. I don't believe, for the most part, that APUGers are bullies. Now there a couple folks who should dial up their lithium dosage, but why cater to them? Honestly, there is nothing to ashamed about in taking images of nude men or women. You know it, I know it. So why change because a couple folks on the internet (remember my peanut gallery comment?) whom you've never met posted a couple words? Meh, I say.

By the way, I owe you an apology.

No you don't, but thank you. We're cool.

Regards, Art.

 

[Ian Leake]

Oh man, you should join the f263 club.

Can you tell that my Dad was a math teacher...

 

[Ian Leake]

Now this is just a shame, because it tells me that you are being bullied by folks on APUG. I don't believe, for the most part, that APUGers are bullies. Now there a couple folks who should dial up their lithium dosage, but why cater to them? Honestly, there is nothing to ashamed about in taking images of nude men or women. You know it, I know it. So why change because a couple folks on the internet (remember my peanut gallery comment?) whom you've never met posted a couple words? Meh, I say.

I don't feel bullied - if I did I'd be reacting very differently. And I don't feel that there's anything to be ashamed of in taking photos of nude men or women (although posting pictures of nude men on the internet would probably get me fired from my job...).

I do what I do because I enjoy it, and because I want to celebrate the human body which is one of the most amazing things there is on this world of ours. And I'm certainly not going to stop because some people don't like it. But I'm also not someone who's driven by the need to challenge society, nor do I get a thrill from generating controversy (I'll leave both of those to people who are better at it than I am).

I don't think I've ever posted anything here that's offensive, but if I feel I have to watch what I say, or worry about what other people say when I post a photo, or worse still have to count the number of hairs on show before deciding whether a photo is "appropriate" or not, then the enjoyment is dramatically diminished for me. And if the enjoyment in posting here goes then what's the point? I'm far better off spending my energies and the limited time I have finding other, more rewarding venues.

 

[Matthew Gorringe]

I enjoy many of the nudes on this site and would encourage everyone to keep posting them. Labelling pictures as a "nude " tends to hide the great variety of styles and approaches in the photographs posted here. I haven't seen anything that could be construed as pornographic or demeaning. On the other hand, if you sometimes feel aroused by a nude there's nothing wrong with that either. Some of the best nude photographs combine cerebral and sexual aspects.

The beauty of a nude body should be something emotional; sometimes sexual, sometimes nostalgic, maybe sad. This doesn't mean that it's pornography just because you have a sexual response to it but it might mean you begin to question your response to the photo. If a "nude" can provoke a little introspection that has to be a good thing.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Scott,

Take a look at this thread: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Do you consider the exchange Ian and I had as the 'nyuck nyuck' "boys will be boys" locker room humour you find prevalent on APUG and offensive? Seriously, do tell.

Regards, Art.

Art-

yes, and no. It was a bunch of sophomoric joking around. It was even kinda funny. However, it was locker-room humor. Think for a second how that would affect someone who had not met you and didn't know your sense of humor. They read that and think, gosh, is that how all photographers think? If I want portraits, and I hire this guy, will he turn off the A/C and use it as an excuse for asking me to get naked? (someone would have to be rather literal-minded to assume you were serious, but you know how the internet depersonalizes and removes tone and inflection, even with emoticons).

I'm not saying that this is rampant. It's not every other nude, or every discussion of nudity, that provokes it. But it doesn't have to be in-your-face unsubtle to have an effect. All I'm suggesting is that people THINK before they post, about what effect their words might have on someone.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

I enjoy many of the nudes on this site and would encourage everyone to keep posting them. Labelling pictures as a "nude " tends to hide the great variety of styles and approaches in the photographs posted here. I haven't seen anything that could be construed as pornographic or demeaning. On the other hand, if you sometimes feel aroused by a nude there's nothing wrong with that either. Some of the best nude photographs combine cerebral and sexual aspects.

The beauty of a nude body should be something emotional; sometimes sexual, sometimes nostalgic, maybe sad. This doesn't mean that it's pornography just because you have a sexual response to it but it might mean you begin to question your response to the photo. If a "nude" can provoke a little introspection that has to be a good thing.

Matt- nobody on this thread is questioning the value of nudes or their presence on this site. I wouldn't say anything posted here is actually pornographic either - the worst sin I've seen has been for a nude to be banal. It is the reactions to said works that are in question. Praising "just-another-breasts-shot" as if it were the second coming of Edward Weston rings false, and creates a negative impression, just as much as the drooling praise of the model or the occasional locker-room joke.

 

[BWGirl]

Holy Moly! I cannot believe how much this thread has grown and how it has diverged from Scott's initial point. Scott's initial point was not that nudes should not be in the gallery, or that people should not "feel" something when looking at them. It wasn't even that they shouldn't ogle. It was...that they should control what they say publicly! Cripes, guys... you argue about your "rights" to do this, and your "rights" to do that, but for Pete's sake, can't you control what you type openly??? I mean, if you want to send a pm to the photographer and say "Man, I'd love to carry your equipment around," or "dang, how do I get a job as your assistant so I can hang around gorgeous naked women", that's fine... send the pm. But don't type that sort of thing openly.
It's not about your "rights," it's not about your sexual preference, it's not about "boys being boys" it's about having a little respect for the rest of this population. I agree with DrPablo... it's much easier to type if you use more than one "appendage." Grow up (past 14) or not, that's each person's decision, but exercise a wee bit of civility.

Case in point, you "boys" have managed to pretty much trivialise every comment made by the women who posted here... with the exception of Cheryl. Gee. Go figure.:rolleyes:

 

[Matthew Gorringe]

Praising "just-another-breasts-shot" as if it were the second coming of Edward Weston rings false, and creates a negative impression, just as much as the drooling praise of the model or the occasional locker-room joke.

I completely agree.

 

[catem]

Jeanette - well said

 

[Matthew Gorringe]

Holy Moly! I cannot believe how much this thread has grown and how it has diverged from Scott's initial point. Scott's initial point was not that nudes should not be in the gallery, or that people should not "feel" something when looking at them. It wasn't even that they shouldn't ogle. It was...that they should control what they say publicly! Cripes, guys... you argue about your "rights" to do this, and your "rights" to do that, but for Pete's sake, can't you control what you type openly??? I mean, if you want to send a pm to the photographer and say "Man, I'd love to carry your equipment around," or "dang, how do I get a job as your assistant so I can hang around gorgeous naked women", that's fine... send the pm. But don't type that sort of thing openly.
It's not about your "rights," it's not about your sexual preference, it's not about "boys being boys" it's about having a little respect for the rest of this population. I agree with DrPablo... it's much easier to type if you use more than one "appendage." Grow up (past 14) or not, that's each person's decision, but exercise a wee bit of civility.

Case in point, you "boys" have managed to pretty much trivialise every comment made by the women who posted here... with the exception of Cheryl. Gee. Go figure.:rolleyes:

I think that's about right.

I guess I chickened out of my last post and should have continued; because nudes sometimes have a sexual component, the comments about them might also be sexual. Some comments are disrespectful or impolite. To me this reflects as much on the original photograph as the person making the comments. A really good nude can evoke sexual feelings but would not usually encourage innappropriate responses because the depth in the photograph causes people to think beyond those feelings.

 

[jstraw]

Indeed, we've banned people for sending threatening PMs or e-mails to other members.

Any time someone refers to us as "the mods," though, I can't help but think of these guys--

(If you don't recognize them, go to-- http://www.chezgrae.com/modsquad/ )

Peggy Lipton....yummmm....

 

[gr82bart]

Peggy Lipton....yummmm....

Oooh ... you're in BIG trouble now ...

Regards, Art.

 

[jstraw]

Cripes, guys... you argue about your "rights" to do this, and your "rights" to do that, but for Pete's sake, can't you control what you type openly??? I mean, if you want to send a pm to the photographer and say "Man, I'd love to carry your equipment around," or "dang, how do I get a job as your assistant so I can hang around gorgeous naked women", that's fine... send the pm. But don't type that sort of thing openly.
It's not about your "rights," it's not about your sexual preference, it's not about "boys being boys" it's about having a little respect for the rest of this population.

Bingo. That's it folks...right there.

 

[Ed Sukach]

Discussions like this one often do cause changes in attitudes over time.

Yes, they do. I think THAT is a good thing.

I recall one APUG member telling me a funny story offline about how many years ago he was reading a _Playboy_ magazine on a plane, when a nun sat down in the seat next to him, and he furtively folded it up and put it away. This was probably the era before deregulation when people still dressed up to go on a plane. I don't think it very likely that I would see someone reading _Playboy_ on an airplane today, even though air travel is much less formal than it used to be. It would just be inappropriate.

Have you read anything of the critique of my portfolio - by a Roman Catholic Nun?

Six degrees of separation re: "Aircraft Experiences"?

I once flew from Atlanta to Indianapolis (Southwestern?). I sat next to a well-dressed, conservative gentleman - who I found out later, was a Vice-President of a national Battery manufacturing company. He reached into the seat pocket in front of him and retrieved a copy of the usual "Buy this Fantastically Overpriced Junk from Us" magazine.
I reached into mine -- and there was a copy of one of the "milder" Girlie Magazines - "Swank" or something like that - definitely "un-Hustler".

He couldn't help but notice. "That is disgusting!!" - and proceeded to read his
"Buy this Clear Toilet Seat with Cast-in Dollar Bills and Change" for only $399.99 mag, glancing at mine every now and then.

I think it took all of ten minutes until he said, "I've got that one after you!"

... but somewhere in the 1970s or 80s, low-brow pornography was relegated to adult bookstores.

It was??

Have you visited your nearby Borders lately?
On my last visit, I discovered a volume compiled - and dedicated to - the "Tiajuana Bibles" - those definitely pornographic, crudely drawn, comic books of the '40's and '50's - with a *very* innocent (looking, at least) girl deeply engrossed in reading it.

Hmmm ... One of the books I have on my shelf is "My Secret Garden", by Nancy Friday ... purchased at an Episcopalian Church Rummage Sale...