Color vs Black and White, the eternal debate

[Alex Benjamin]

I thing these are super difficult books to read but perhaps worth trying!

They are both, difficult and worth trying. I've read a lot of Malraux when I was younger, but I couldn't any more. My intellectual chops are out of practice. Like many French intellectuals of that era, Malraux is a tough read. Last thing to do is try to grasp the complexity of his ideas from two or three quotes taken out of context.

 

[MattKing]

I think this would be a nothing photo in B&W, it's all about the colour of the trees.
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Well, it would certainly be a very different photo - particular if printed slightly differently.

Apologies for the liberties taken.

 

[wiltw]

If the purpose of a good photograph is to transform reality as Winogrand said isn't it more difficult to do it with color when you are so much bound to reality?

Yet some photographs ILLUSTRATE REALITY, and color reproduction is a necessary component of such photographs.
There is no single right or wrong, it is dependent upon the purpose of the photo, and the purposes of photos are varied!

 

[pentaxuser]

Craig, I have to say that my sentiments here are those of Matt's in # 127. What persuaded me to agree with Matt was a b&w painting of a similar scene of what looks like a forest that might have been in the far North of Canada in winter.

I bought it in Crete of all places in high Summer one evening when passing a kind of gallery that sold paintings of what anyone as a tourist would assume to be a Cretan scenes It drew my attention immediately as a "just right" picture

Before I saw it I would have probably felt like you that the "great outdoors" needs colour.

pentaxuser

 

[Craig]

Before I saw it I would have probably felt like you that the "great outdoors" needs colour.

pentaxuser

In the photo posted, the Larch trees change colour and drop their needles in the fall, they are only that yellow colour for about 2 weeks at most. So I think that the colour is essential to the photo, otherwise it's a just another mountain and tree photo.

 

[Don_ih]

otherwise it's a just another mountain and tree photo

I agree. Your eye travels to different places with the colour drained. The viewing experience is different.

 

[dcy]

The choice of color vs bw cannot affect the essence of a photo

Why not?

I couldn't disagree more. Color and BW can easily provoke different emotional reactions, or draw your eye to a different part or different aspect of the image. That, to me, sounds pretty much like the "essence" of the photo.

 

[dcy]

Credit: Linda Holt

 

[dcy]

But I I don't believe that color is an element of composition or content or even form as had been said before.
I simply consider color as an editing choice similar to pumping up the contrast.

I am bewildered by the notion that contrast cannot be an element of composition or content.

Credit: “Lonely alleys of Venice,” by ines_maria.

 

[GregY]

In the photo posted, the Larch trees change colour and drop their needles in the fall, they are only that yellow colour for about 2 weeks at most. So I think that the colour is essential to the photo, otherwise it's a just another mountain and tree photo.

Craig, that conversion to BW is not particularly successful, but there are outstanding black & white photographs of larches and aspens when the lighting and contrast are right. Here's one snagged of the web.... (photo by Roger Hosktin)

 

[Craig]

I'd be curious to see that one in colour side by side with the B&W. For me though, the big attraction of the larch in the fall is their colour.

 

[GregY]

I'd be curious to see that one in colour side by side with the B&W. For me though, the big attraction of the larch in the fall is their colour.

That's true Craig & I understand your preference, but the fact that they stand out can also be shown successfully in black and white images, whereas the rest of the year they blend in with the other greens.

 

[Craig]

They kind of look like they were shot on IR film because of the spectral response, although I know it's pan film.

 

[DREW WILEY]

This thread has come to some interesting conclusions, like erasing 40,000 years of art history when in comes to the role of color in composition.

 

[djdister]

Well, it would certainly be a very different photo - particular if printed slightly differently.
View attachment 404639
Apologies for the liberties taken.

I've taken a few liberties as well, in emphasizing the contrast of the aspens a bit more...

 

[Alex Benjamin]

This thread has come to some interesting conclusions, like erasing 40,000 years of art history when in comes to the role of color in composition.

Not to mention misspelling "colour" the whole way.

 

[nikos79]

I am bewildered by the notion that contrast cannot be an element of composition or content.

View attachment 404661

You are trying to make a point by sharing a photo that if I judge it with my criteria goes automatically to the category of "bad" photos.
Don't ask me why, it seems I see different things that the majority here and perhaps since I do not find anyone that I can agree with perhaps I should stop posting from now on.

 

[nikos79]

View attachment 404659
View attachment 404660

1st photo: Chaos in the street, chaos in the photographer eye. Not sure what the photographer saw the photo is just awful, no frame, no corners, nothing to show

2nd photo: A bit better since the pain on the eye from that visual chaos got milder from the monochrome scale but the photo remains a mess.

Not sure what you are trying to say

 

[koraks]

Don't ask me why, it seems I see different things that the majority here and perhaps since I do not find anyone that I can agree with perhaps I should stop posting from now on.

I think several have made it clear that they respect your opinion; maybe they haven't been as verbose in doing so as the critics (including myself), but they're certainly there.
Whether or not people agree with you - does it matter, in the end? Ultimately, there's probably nobody who agrees entirely with anybody else on this planet. Look hard enough and there'll always be differences of opinion. For me, it's not a problem that you have an opinion, nor that it deviates from what you perceive as the 'average' opinion. As pointed out before, what I find problematic is voicing a private opinion in terms of 'good' and 'bad'. That ticks people off. You find yourself be ticked off as a result. That's your own (un)doing.

The topics you brought to the fore in this thread are interesting, but I think the overall exchange would be more pleasant (for you in the first place) if they were formulated in a more open, non-judgemental fashion.

"What is the role of color in relation to other aspects of photography, such as composition?"
"Can color be regarded as a part of composition, or are they conceptually distinct?"

"What does it mean if color is a dominant characteristic in a photograph; how does that affect the viewer/you?"

"If you remove color from a photograph that you like, would you still like it? How would it change the photograph and its impact?"
"To what extent and under which conditions is it possible for a B&W photograph to have the same impact on the viewer as a color photograph (or vice versa)?"

And if you're into the iffy business about why color photography took such a long time to become accepted in the arts, you could even ask questions about that.

Etc. etc. If you mean what you said in #1, i.e. that you're interested in hearing how other people think about these things, then perhaps just ask and see what comes up. Like I said, it's interesting stuff for sure. And in my experience, if questions are asked as I formulated them above, the discussion tends to start off at least (and perhaps even remain) very congenial, with the opportunity for everyone to voice their own opinions, however much distance there may be between those opinions.

 

[nikos79]

I think several have made it clear that they respect your opinion; maybe they haven't been as verbose in doing so as the critics (including myself), but they're certainly there.
Whether or not people agree with you - does it matter, in the end? Ultimately, there's probably nobody who agrees entirely with anybody else on this planet. Look hard enough and there'll always be differences of opinion. For me, it's not a problem that you have an opinion, nor that it deviates from what you perceive as the 'average' opinion. As pointed out before, what I find problematic is voicing a private opinion in terms of 'good' and 'bad'. That ticks people off. You find yourself be ticked off as a result. That's your own (un)doing.

The topics you brought to the fore in this thread are interesting, but I think the overall exchange would be more pleasant (for you in the first place) if they were formulated in a more open, non-judgemental fashion.

"What is the role of color in relation to other aspects of photography, such as composition?"
"Can color be regarded as a part of composition, or are they conceptually distinct?"

"What does it mean if color is a dominant characteristic in a photograph; how does that affect the viewer/you?"

"If you remove color from a photograph that you like, would you still like it? How would it change the photograph and its impact?"
"To what extent and under which conditions is it possible for a B&W photograph to have the same impact on the viewer as a color photograph (or vice versa)?"

And if you're into the iffy business about why color photography took such a long time to become accepted in the arts, you could even ask questions about that.

Etc. etc. If you mean what you said in #1, i.e. that you're interested in hearing how other people think about these things, then perhaps just ask and see what comes up. Like I said, it's interesting stuff for sure. And in my experience, if questions are asked as I formulated them above, the discussion tends to start off at least (and perhaps even remain) very congenial, with the opportunity for everyone to voice their own opinions, however much distance there may be between those opinions.

Thank you I understand the formulation matters indeed and you did a good job reformulating them such as not to provoke others and instead trigger interesting discussion

 

[Alex Benjamin]

Don't ask me why, it seems I see different things that the majority here and perhaps since I do not find anyone that I can agree with perhaps I should stop posting from now on.

You have people here from (almost) all over, with widely different backgrounds and histories, and with different relationships with the photographic medium itself. Agreement is arely to be expected. It's all about the exchange of ideas (and photographic formulas), and having one's opinions challenged. And as for the latter, the healthy attitude—in my opinion —is always to ask oneself: "What if I'm wrong?".

 

[dcy]

You are trying to make a point by sharing a photo that if I judge it with my criteria goes automatically to the category of "bad" photos.

1st photo: Chaos in the street, chaos in the photographer eye. Not sure what the photographer saw the photo is just awful, no frame, no corners, nothing to show

I really wish you would stop referring to photographs you don't like as "bad" or "awful". You clearly have an uncommonly narrow set of criteria of what photographs you like. The photographers who took these photos are not unskilled or incompetent. The high-contrast scene is not a mistake. This is a deliberate choice and it creates a mood. Evidently you do not perceive the mood, and you do not see how it would be lost. But that's your own limitation, not the photographer's. If we are talking of purely about aesthetic preferences, it seems to me, based on your descriptions, like the photos that you like are photos I might find boring and uninteresting.

 

[snusmumriken]

The photographers who took these photos are not unskilled or incompetent.

Who did take the photos in fact? They should be acknowledged.

 

[dcy]

Who did take the photos in fact? They should be acknowledged.

B&W photo: “Lonely alleys of Venice,” by ines_maria.
Color photo: Linda Holt

I don't have the original URL where I got the B&W photo (I might find it when I get home) but I was able to do a reverse image search. I've added credits to the original posts.

 

[warden]

it seems I see different things that the majority here and perhaps since I do not find anyone that I can agree with perhaps I should stop posting from now on.

I've been following this thread and enjoying it.

Don't assume everyone here disagrees with you. Many people read this forum without posting after all, and who knows what they're thinking? I respect that you are engaging with this forum in English, which if I recall correctly is not your native language. I appreciate your participation here and hope it continues because you have ideas that are not the norm here, which is healthy.

You are getting a lot of feedback from the community and moderating team about how this forum works, and the type of communication that is acceptable here. People are investing their time and energy helping you. That is a compliment! Please repay that compliment by adjusting your approach and you will find this a welcoming and educational place.

Photrio is unique on the internet because it offers deep photographic knowledge and a willingness to help one another learn and grow. Stick around. Share pictures.