Color separation from a single B&W negative?

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whitelight

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Is this even possible? Specifically, using an enlarger with 35mm B&W film - maybe with some filters?

I'm aware there are methods out there to create color separations from B&W images (e.g. 3 identical shots when shooting film w/ various filters, or using a digital method on photoshop), but these are not particularly what I'm after.

For a bit of context, looking to do something similar to tri-color carbon or gum, but without the use of digital negs!
 

eli griggs

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I believe you must shot the shot thee or four times with the correct filtration and a pin register, and print each of them together in the same print.

I would nder of anyone here has tried this with paper negatives?
 

L Gebhardt

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I think you are asking for the impossible. Once the black and white negative is exposed all color information is lost. any filters you add when viewing/printing the negative will apply equally to the whole negative and you will just introduce a uniform color cast.

The three separate shots with color separation filters works because the filters alter the incoming light differently for each color.
 

AnselMortensen

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L Gebhardt is correct.
There would be no difference in densities from different colors...basically you'd end up with a 3-layer monochrome image with a color cast due to the overlapping color pigments not being "perfect".
 

koraks

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I'm aware there are methods out there to create color separations from B&W images (e.g. 3 identical shots when shooting film w/ various filters, or using a digital method on photoshop), but these are not particularly what I'm after.

Then you're left with the method of using color positives or negatives and making separations from those. It's been done for decades, and still is being done today, but only by the incredibly brave & patient.

For color carbon or gum, digital separations are the way to go. Honestly, you'll drive yourself mad if you do it any other way. Maybe if you set aside 3-4 years and put 40-50 hrs/week into it - that's the kind of learning curve we're talking about to get anything sort of accurate and consistent in terms of analog-based color carbon/gum, and I'm being optimistic.

Have you read Calvin Grier's Gum Printing manual and his Calibration series? I really recommend doing so. Read and take very seriously what he says. It'll save you loads of time. Ask me how I know! There's plenty of info on my blog about my own color carbon journey. It's far from complete, and I'm not sure if I'll ever 'complete' that journey. It does give an impression of the kind of challenge you're pitting yourself against.

Of course, if it doesn't really matter what kind of colors you get and there's no need for consistency, you can cut a lot of corners and that will save you a massive amount of time. Making analog separations will still be a real chore, though.
 

RalphLambrecht

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Is this even possible? Specifically, using an enlarger with 35mm B&W film - maybe with some filters?

I'm aware there are methods out there to create color separations from B&W images (e.g. 3 identical shots when shooting film w/ various filters, or using a digital method on photoshop), but these are not particularly what I'm after.

For a bit of context, looking to do something similar to tri-color carbon or gum, but without the use of digital negs!

seems absolutely crazy to shoot three negs with different filters, scan them and then combine them in PS when you can shoot just one dig image and go directly to PS! What is this? 'just because I can and show off the technology'?
 

Don_ih

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seems absolutely crazy to shoot three negs with different filters, scan them and then combine them in PS when you can shoot just one dig image and go directly to PS! What is this? 'just because I can and show off the technology'?

Apply the same argument to using film.
Or apply it to anything, for that matter.

When you shoot three filtered negatives to get a final colour image, you end up with something a bit different than a straight colour digital image, and you get very direct control over all the colours. Plus it's interesting. Plus you could, if you were particularly masochistic, make an RA4 print from those three negatives.

Look through this thread.
 

koraks

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seems absolutely crazy to shoot three negs with different filters, scan them and then combine them in PS

But that's not what he's proposing to do. He wants to do gum or carbon prints, so he needs the actual negatives. The way I see it he's trying to circumvent the digital domain altogether.
 

Donald Qualls

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I would nder of anyone here has tried this with paper negatives?

Enlarging papers (now) are red-blind, so you'd be limited to green and blue filtration. This could work after a fashion (the earliest Technicolor used only two negatives, though they were green and red as I recall), but the color reproduction would be limited.

Otherwise, you'd need something like an autochrome or Lippman plate (or traditional tricolor on three negatives) to get the color information from a B&W emulsion.
 

eli griggs

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Enlarging papers (now) are red-blind, so you'd be limited to green and blue filtration. This could work after a fashion (the earliest Technicolor used only two negatives, though they were green and red as I recall), but the color reproduction would be limited.

Otherwise, you'd need something like an autochrome or Lippman plate (or traditional tricolor on three negatives) to get the color information from a B&W emulsion.

Cheers!
 

DREW WILEY

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True tricolor photography has always involved at least three separate exposures : R,G, and B. Anything else is faux color. And it's been around for over a century. Some people still do it that way.
It can still be done all film, darkroom-style, just like it was done for decades prior to scanners or any kind of digital options. And there are all kinds of specific ways to do it, just like you can get to the South Pole either on skis or dogsled or even crawling if you have enough time ... (hint - it takes some real effort, also like it did in former generations). But certain options are popular enough that you can find workshops and websites dedicated to them.
 

eli griggs

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Colour transfer prints were often, beautiful and the result of three filtered duplicates, married into a single print.

Has anyone knowledge of this technique still being done, with fresh dyes?
 

koraks

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Has anyone knowledge of this technique still being done, with fresh dyes?

I know of at least two active practitioners taking on commercial work, one in the US and one in Germany. I don't know exactly which parts of their materials are fresh and which ones are legacy/NOS. Haven't looked into it very much further, but you may try inquiring with @sasah zib .
 

DREW WILEY

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Go to the Alternative Processes section of this forum for an introduction to some of these tri-color options. Doing it well in terms of actual printmaking is also going to requires specialized punch and register equipment. Current options include dye transfer printing, at least among those still with reserves of the needed materials, tri and quad color carbon, analogous casein, and several forms of gum arabic printing. There are quite a few other revived techniques as well as hybrid tweaks happening.

Dye transfer printing is very time and labor intensive. I'm only a beginner at it, since it has been difficult for me to find large enough spaces of time when I'm not involved in other forms of color printing already giving me very high quality results. But I am in contact with those who still seriously practice it. I'm only aware of two remaining commercial options - Jim Browning, the owner of Digital Mask, who does it in this country via separation negatives outputted by a special laser film recorder he personally invented, and a couple in Germany who expose the printing matrices directly via blue laser from scanned digital separations, skipping the pan film steps entirely, using custom manufactured matrix film and receiver paper. Dyes per se are easy to get and formulate. The German operation happened to receive a large university grant allowing a custom fresh run of the needed sheet goods. My own matrix film is from Efke, leftover from Jim Browning's bulk order, based on his own reformulation. I've kept it in the freezer. If anyone is interested in doing their own coating of dye transfer matrix film, specific information is available online; and it will probably take only a minute or two to totally intimidate both your level of courage and your bank account.

I'm not aware of any current commercial color carbon transfer printing services, although Todd Gangler might do it. Past commercial varieties included Ultrastable, Polaroid Permanent, Evercolor, and one more I can't remember. The classic Fresson Atelier process in France is technically a trade-secret direct carbon process, rather than carbon transfer, and has it's own proprietary look; I have no idea of their current pricing. Bob at Elevator Lab in Toronto offers commercial gum printing. But DIY carbon, casein, and gum printing are fairly common, using readily available, low-budget materials. The major investment, in those cases, is in blood, sweat, and tears. There can be a tedious learning curve. And all of these are UV-exposure processes.
 
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DREW WILEY

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Koraks, by "commercial" I didn't mean individuals willing to make carbon prints for others, but actual labs or agencies specializing in doing that using mass-produced materials and patented or proprietary methods. And I'm not aware of any of those kinds of businesses still in operation other than Fresson. It's a tremendously expensive undertaking with a limited number of potential clients, given the advent and popularity of inkjet printing. That pretty much spelled the demise of dye transfer too on commercial scale, though not completely. These alt color processes have their own special looks.

I've been involved in discussions with others presuming to revive certain of them on commercial scale, who don't quite realize what's involved. It's just like trying to revive the Technicolor movie process. The special cameras still exist, many of the dyes do too, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. You'd have to rebuild an entire infrastructure of industrial supply chains and highly trained personnel, along with processing facilities; and no matter how much money gets thrown at it, it's not realistic. But with small-scale hand-coating of emulsions and pigments, lots of people can afford to make carbon and gum prints. And any philanthropist willing to drop a million bucks or so could get dye transfer materials more widely available again - but how many actual buyers would there be? Not many. As an investment, it was be foolhardy.
 

koraks

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but actual labs or agencies specializing in doing that using mass-produced materials and patented or proprietary methods.

Considering anything 'mass produced' in the context of color carbon or gum doesn't mesh with reality. Thanks for the clarification though. Not sure how it makes sense to think along these lines given that it's 2023 and the concept of mass produced carbon or gum would fit better in around 1923, but alright.

Anyway, it's an off-topic tangent, so please allow the thread to meander back to OP's question.

Along those lines, what does come to mind is that color separations of a single B&W negative are in fact possible - they just won't restore the original colors of the scene, since they weren't recorded. But what you can do, and what indeed is commonly done especially in gum printing, is to make tonal separations and then print those in different colors. You could also make separations involving burning & dodging and/or masking to selectively print colors in specific areas.

For carbon, this will work just as well. Indeed, I've done so on occasion, although not really with separations, but instead just printing shadows, midtones and highlights 'separately' in different colors using a single negative. The outcome was interesting and certainly worthy of further exploration - just haven't gotten round to that yet. An actual tonal separation approach would in fact have been more effective for what I tried to achieve, and I think there's certainly merit to the idea.
 

Don_ih

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Considering anything 'mass produced' in the context of color carbon or gum doesn't mesh with reality. Thanks for the clarification though. Not sure how it makes sense to think along these lines given that it's 2023 and the concept of mass produced carbon or gum would fit better in around 1923, but alright.

"Carbon was widely practiced in Europe and in the USA throughout the 19th century and well into the 20th. Many considered it the aristocrat of all printing processes, and commercial carbon prints typically cost much more than those produced by any of the other processes, including palladium and platinum. The market for carbon materials all but disappeared in the 1950s, although Hanfstaengl of Germany continued to produce small quantities of carbon tissue and transfer papers for monochrome and three-color work until around 1990. Ultrastable, a modern carbon color printing process based on the use of digital negatives and pin registration of the color reliefs, was introduced in the 1990s and enjoyed some popularity as a high-end color printing process, but as of several years ago materials for the process are no longer available." -- from here.
 

Bill Burk

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If I wanted to make large format color separation negatives from a 35mm film original, I would start with a color slide original and make film enlargements through red/green/blue filters onto a panchromatic film.

@DREW WILEY you often talk of how hard it is to get it right. Imagine taking perfection out of the equation.

Just for fun, to understand the process and come out with obviously not properly balanced or color corrected results.

Like high school art class quality. I think it can be done with modest effort.

The only thing we have to figure out is the requirements of the print technology (e.g., do you need a screen because the process is high contrast, or do you need a positive because the process wants it like photopolymer plate).

But the main thing to the original question is… did you mean a color slide? Sure you can make separations from that. Go out and shoot color slides for this project.
 

250swb

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It's a very simple process, make three exposures each with a red green and blue filter on the lens and colorise the B&W images accordingly Red Green and Blue in Photoshop (keep notes of the order you shot in). Then all you need to do is make three layers and to get started just give each 33% transparency, but then adjust values until the image looks right. The problems come with any moving objects, like clouds, water, or people, who will appear either Red Green or Blue depending on which filter was used for that particular exposure. You need a good tripod and either use a drop in filter system or don't screw on your circular filters too tightly as you want to remove any chance of movement in the camera or the three images won't register accurately.
 

DREW WILEY

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Ultrastable evolved into Evercolor, which had their CMYK coatings made in high volume by an Agfa plant. Charles Berger was involved in both ventures. These, as well as Polaroid Permanent, were all screen processes. If the dot density got too fine, the layers would blister. The halftone pattern was evident, and to many, including me, the look was too much like halftone offset printing. I visited Evercolor's operation, and still have a some samples stored away somewhere. The colors could also block up an get garish; but others in the know have informed me that was due to post-scanning software issues.

In these carbon processes, you don't have the ability to fine-tune the outcome during the printing process itself, like with dye transfer printing. You also don't get the transparency of dyes. But
certain local hand-coaters used relatively transparent watercolor pigments and got lovely results. The amount of time and effort they put into each print was ridiculous. Gum printing is based on painting on multiple layers instead, and can be altered somewhat, but can otherwise be a muddy-looking unsharp result. Some apply gum coloration in register over black and white silver or Pt/Pd prints - more an artsy thing than a realistic look. Depends on your taste.

Bill - the in initial hurdle is in the separations. They can be sequentially done in camera using long-scale panchromatic films (large sheet film is far easier to register together than small film). There were also bulky tricolor cameras using beam-splitters or pellicles made by Devin and Curtis up through the 1950's. Some people have reconditioned and upgraded these at considerable effort and use them today, though they're a lot of effort even to load - and you get only one image per loading. Then chrome sheet film became the dominant mode of shooting, with the color separations being my in a darkroom or consigned to a commercial service bureau specializing in that. Today, it's more common to make scans of a chrome or sometimes a color neg and output that to some kind of set of RGB separations using image setting film, laser film recorders, or transparent inkjet material. They are all kinds of potential hybrid routes.

But color carbon printing is daunting enough that few people get beyond monochrome carbon printing, which is actually fairly popular. Most of these UV processes involve hazardous dichromate sensitizing salts; so there are potentially serious health risks if one is careless with such chemicals.

Of course, one could simply make in camera-separations, or even lab separations from chrome film or slides, and then enlarge those separation sequentially in register onto ordinary RA4 printing papers. I have the ability to do that if I wished, but the needed equipment and degree of dust control and enlarging precision each step can be daunting, and the equipment itself quite expensive if you don't already have it like I do. High quality results often require supplementary masking, so maybe a dozen or more sheets of film get involved, and the cost adds up fast.

But sure, Bill, there are plenty reports of people just casually fooling around and having fun with RGB filters, taking a triple exposure, mainly with DLSR's, then reassembling the results using a PS snap alignment feature. Fine for web purposes and a fun funky look; maybe not so worthy of being framed on a wall. Real printmaking is a whole different skill set; and there's nothing easy about it.
But when well done, it will sure send all your webbish little pixel pixies scurrying back into their burrow with shame.

And as far as taking a single black & white shot and colorizing it - might as well use Marshall's oil colors, or now some Ai program, whatever ... I can't personally conceive of that as real color photography at all, though some people enjoy doing that kind of thing.
 
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250swb

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But sure, Bill, there are plenty reports of people just casually fooling around and having fun with RGB filters, taking a triple exposure, mainly with DLSR's, then reassembling the results using a PS snap alignment feature. Fine for web purposes and a fun funky look; maybe not so worthy of being framed on a wall.

Lol, Technicolor was fooling about? Hollywood didn't think using three colour filters was such a silly inconsequential idea. The 'three colour' principle in photography goes back to the 1860's, it's not a modern digital affectation.
 
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DREW WILEY

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Did you read and understand a single word I wrote, 250dwb? Apparently not. I was making an obvious CONTRAST between the high level of skill and equipment involved in serious tricolor processes, including Tehnicolor (which had both movie and still versions of it, all dye-transfer derived) versus quickie digital webbish experimentation these days.
 

Bill Burk

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My stepfather’s best friend’s kid runs a Technicolor line… his client wants archival sets of separations made from their composite film. I think they rhyme with Shmisney.
 
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