Color printing procedure

twelvetone12 · Jun 8, 2017

I've been enjoying color printing lately and I'm slowly starting to have some good results. But it seems there is not much to read out there on color printing in the darkroom, and I'm not 100% sure I'm doing all the basics properly. I would like others to share their experiences to enlighten me a bit
Right now I use Adox RA-4 chems in open trays at room temperature. I understand this is not the best setup possible, but I see no difference when doing it a 35 degrees (as per spec) in my jobo*. And for the purpose of testing it makes my life simpler.
My question is: how do you get a print correctly exposed? I can sort-of do that but it takes a huge quantity of paper/time:
1) I do a test strip at 80M/90Y on my color enlarger (with the filters on the BW enlarger it would be approximately 40M/40Y, is it normal to have such a discrepancy?), choose the exposure and do a print to evaluate
2) Then I start calibrating the color for the print, and do prints at the same exposure until I like the colors
3) at this point generally the exposure is not right anymore, so I do a couple prints until a nail that down
4) which in turn alters a bit the color balance, so I maybe do one or two more prints to get that to my liking and I finely adjust exposure time for the final print

Last day, for example, it took me 11 work prints to get to a decent final print.
Am I missing anything obvious here? Printing is fun, but I prefer not to use half a pack of paper just to make a print!

Lastly, all the prints I do seem very on the contrasty side - much more than the ones the lab makes. Is there a way to control that?

Thanks!!

* Actually using the print drum I always seem to get blue streaks. I tried a 35 degrees and room temp, pouring fast or slowly che chemicals, but at the end I got better results directly in trays.

darkroom_rookie · Jun 8, 2017

M/Y discrepancy could easily be due to worn filters, or maybe temperature. Can you get tray warmers? No low- or medium-contrast RA-4 papers anymore. Out of several types of Kodak and Fuji RA-4 papers I tried, Endura Premier looked best, but still relatively contrasty. One solution is to look for certain lenses with lower contrast (Hoya Super EL 60/4) or mix up your own chems. If you're in the UK, get proper RA-4 dev and blfx - Kodak RT-LU, and not Tetenal's one-part stuff repackaged as whatever (Adox etc). Just my 20 pence...

rpavich · Jun 8, 2017

twelvetone12 said:
I've been enjoying color printing lately and I'm slowly starting to have some good results. But it seems there is not much to read out there on color printing in the darkroom, and I'm not 100% sure I'm doing all the basics properly. I would like others to share their experiences to enlighten me a bit

I'm not a pro by any means but I do have a system that works so I'll try and help. I feel your pain.

Right now I use Adox RA-4 chems in open trays at room temperature. I understand this is not the best setup possible, but I see no difference when doing it a 35 degrees (as per spec) in my jobo*. And for the purpose of testing it makes my life simpler.

True. Room temp is the easiest way and the prints don't suffer.

My question is: how do you get a print correctly exposed? I can sort-of do that but it takes a huge quantity of paper/time:
1) I do a test strip at 80M/90Y on my color enlarger (with the filters on the BW enlarger it would be approximately 40M/40Y, is it normal to have such a discrepancy?), choose the exposure and do a print to evaluate
2) Then I start calibrating the color for the print, and do prints at the same exposure until I like the colors
3) at this point generally the exposure is not right anymore, so I do a couple prints until a nail that down
4) which in turn alters a bit the color balance, so I maybe do one or two more prints to get that to my liking and I finely adjust exposure time for the final print

Last day, for example, it took me 11 work prints to get to a decent final print.
Am I missing anything obvious here? Printing is fun, but I prefer not to use half a pack of paper just to make a print!

Sadly, you aren't missing anything. That's the system as it stands. One thing that will help though (in my opinion) is getting an ExpoDisc and shooting a reference frame for each roll you shoot and also shooting one when the lighting situation changes. You shoot it at the light source and it makes a heck of a grey reference negative. You'll find that if you do that, and you zero in on getting that frame grey, then each subsequent print will take the same filter settings and all you have to do is do a test strip for density for each one. You spend the time on that one negative, and all of the others are just one test strip away from success.
I also highly recommend making a contact sheet. If you make a contact sheet it gives you some very valuable information as to how each shot will come out and how each is exposed in relation to the others.
Also, there are a couple of things that would help. The Kodak Print viewers that help you zero in on filtration changes are worth getting.

Lastly, all the prints I do seem very on the contrasty side - much more than the ones the lab makes. Is there a way to control that?

Thanks!!

* Actually using the print drum I always seem to get blue streaks. I tried a 35 degrees and room temp, pouring fast or slowly che chemicals, but at the end I got better results directly in trays.

The easiest way I've found is to use the jobo drums at room temp; spinning them on a Unicolor Roller base. Pre-rinsing for a minute or two should stop blue streaks I think.

Here is a contact sheet I have and as you can see, the filtration and time work for some of the shots and some don't. The whitish featureless frames are the expodisc frames.

bvy · Jun 8, 2017

Consistency is everything. Good note taking is a close second. I also use and recommend drums, and I process at 94F. Room temperature works, but in my case room temperature can be anywhere from 65F to 75F throughout the year, so that's just one more moving target to tackle every time you print. 94F is 94F.

Changing filtration will affect exposure, but changing exposure shouldn't affect filtration -- unless you're way off to begin with. Somewhere in the depths of APUG, I described an easel I modified that allows me to make four small exposures of the same area to a single sheet of 4x5 paper. I try to pick an area of the scene that has gray or white for this. So once I get the exposure in the ballpark, I might print 50M+50Y, 50M+70Y, 70M+50Y, and 70M+70Y to one sheet of paper. I rely heavily on my notes (Excel is great for this) to give me a baseline for whatever film I'm using. But 90% of the prints I make fall into the 50-80 filtration range for both magenta and yellow. Seeing everything side by side on the same piece of print paper helps enormously.

For your streaking issue with drums, make sure you're using a stop bath (a solution of 1% vinegar works well) and that you're blix isn't exhausted. Those are the two main culprits.

Not much you can do about contrasty prints without resorting to more advanced techniques -- like masks and developer additives.

darkroom_rookie · Jun 8, 2017

Certain lenses will give lower contrast in colour printing. Tried and tested. Just make sure glasses are clean. Older version of Apo-Rodagon 90 (not N) is great for this.

Berri · Jun 8, 2017

I have a little bit of experience in color printing and with Adox Ra4. First of all, you are right, you can print at room temp with great results. To do so you either increase the dev. time or exposure time. If you don't have a colour analyzer the best thing to do is keep it simple: 1)use always the same C41 kit and don't over-use it (it could give reasonable results but with colour shifts that you'll have to compensate)
2) shoot a grey card. Every time you process the a new emulsion in fresh chemicals make sure to shoot a grey card in perfect light condition (remember to shoot in daylight with daylight film when the colour temp is about 5500K) when you have a grey card shot for every emulsion you use make a perfect print of that card so that there is no colour shifts in the grey area, take note of the filtration. This filtration will be spot on every time you want to print that film on that paper. You may (or may not) want to adjust a little bit for frames shot in different light situation; remember that shooting in the shade will produce blueish pictures, coloured diffuse light will produce a cast of the same colour, for example if you take a portrait under a tree, you might have a greenish cast pecause of the green diffuse light coming both from leaves and grass.
3)making contact proof helps with the colour balancing.

the best way to waste less paper and chemicals is using a color analizer like the colorstar 2000 that is very helpful in determining both colour filtration and exposure time, also forget the jobo drum; it makes you waste a lot of chemicals. Use either open trays or a roller transport tabletop processor. I picked up a durst RCP20 for 300€ and it has the gearing for ra4. there is one at this moment on ebay.

buy paper in rolls; much cheaper

have fun!

twelvetone12 · Jun 14, 2017

Thanks guys for the replies! So I'm not doing anything too extravagant it seems
I always take numerous notes and keep my image "rejects", I also try to change the minimum parameters when experimenting so I can have a grasp on what is changing (even if it uses lots of paper).
I didn't know the Adox RA4 was just rebranded stuff, it is quite a bummer... I maybe will get the original directly. Unfortunately here in Swiss there are not so many dealers that have chems (or at least, affordable dealers...), so sourcing Kodak RA4 can be difficult.
I wanted to try paper in rolls, which is much cheaper than sheets, but they are so long! It is a lifetime supply of paper

I have one more question on contact sheets. Do you use a contact frame or similar? In find it very difficult to properly place the negative strips on the paper in complete darkness (they move, overlap, etc...) is there an easier way?
thanks!

bvy · Jun 14, 2017

twelvetone12 said:
I have one more question on contact sheets. Do you use a contact frame or similar? In find it very difficult to properly place the negative strips on the paper in complete darkness (they move, overlap, etc...) is there an easier way?
thanks!

You could buy the PrintFile negative pages for storage and contact print right through them. They even advertise them as such.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...le_PF357BXW100_Archival_Storage_Page_for.html

David Lyga · Jun 14, 2017

Do not use whole sheets to test. Find an appropriate color part of the print, then place only a, say, 2" x 2" paper upon it on the easel. That will determine proper color and proper exposure. Cut one 8x10 sheet into about 20 tiny test sheets.

I also use trays. First, to save money, you can dilute that color paper developer about 4X and then develop for 2 minutes at room temp. That is what I do with Kodak RA4 RT developer/replenisher: (KP 36-8477184). It will last indefinitely if stored in either glass or PET plastic bottles, filled to the brim (using glass marbles to take up the slack.

After development, I stop, then FIX. After fixation, room lights on. Inspect. At the end of the session, I blix all the prints: (in mL, not grams: 1 potassium ferricyanide for each 50 mL of water makes the bleach. This bleach is mixed with an equal part of diluted fixer (1 pt film strength +3 pts water) at the time of this final blix as the combination will not last more than half an hour. The blix SLIGHTLY reduces density and SLIGHTLY warms up the image, so this step can be reserved for last with the other prints. - David Lyga

btaylor · Jun 14, 2017

+1 on the PrintFile pages. It's not ideal (plastic degrades the image, esp on small 35mm negs) but it's darn near impossible to line up the negs and then drop the glass in total darkness.
Also, lots of practice will reduce your reject rate. It might take a box of paper to get you there. The three tools that help me the best are a shot of a gray card, the Kodak viewing filters and an old Ilford enlarger exposure meter. I can usually get to a final print I like in 2-3 sheets.

twelvetone12 · Jun 14, 2017

I have the Ilford meter and use it for B&W, but I never thought of using it with color! d'oh!

mshchem · Jun 14, 2017

Keep good records. I balance for Portra NC film. That's all I shoot. I use a antique Kodak Rapid color processor, uses 1 shot chemistry. Temp is set for 95F with a after market heater. You can find these on Ebay for 100 bucks. Totally repeatable. USE FRESH PAPER! IT's cheap as dirt. Once you get the filter pack down it shouldn't change much.
Fuji is the only one left making cut sheets. I tried using some older cold stored Kodak paper, NO way I could get it balanced. Don't waste your time with outdated materials.

Trays work fine, 75F, 2 minutes. RA-4 is the easiest process made. Totally fun and easy once you get it down. Chemicals are cheap. Paper is cheapo

anikin · Jun 14, 2017

darkroom_rookie said:
M/Y discrepancy could easily be due to worn filters,[...]

+1 on that one. At the beginning I had an old Beseler enlarger and I had a hell of a time balancing the colors. Apparently the problem was faded filters. When I got an enlarger with better filters, I realized that not all of the struggles were because of me

rpavich · Jun 14, 2017

bvy said:
You could buy the PrintFile negative pages for storage and contact print right through them. They even advertise them as such.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...le_PF357BXW100_Archival_Storage_Page_for.html

This is what I do. The contact sheet looks "good enough" for it's purpose when printed that way.

Photo Engineer · Jun 14, 2017

Regarding the Jobo, I suggest a 1 minute prewet and a 30" rinse in 2% stop before the blix. Do not use the bleach suggested by David Lyga above. The Ferricyanide might oxidize some necessary chemicals in the coating. IDK. I would hate to try.

When you make an exposure, always KEEP TIME CONSTANT! Vary the aperture. This helps insure constant color balance. And expect big changes in filter pack between enlargers. In fact, expect a big change if your enlarger lamp goes and you put in a new one. Lights vary, even of the same type.

PE

rpavich · Jun 15, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
Regarding the Jobo, I suggest a 1 minute prewet and a 30" rinse in 2% stop before the blix. Do not use the bleach suggested by David Lyga above. The Ferricyanide might oxidize some necessary chemicals in the coating. IDK. I would hate to try.

When you make an exposure, always KEEP TIME CONSTANT! Vary the aperture. This helps insure constant color balance. And expect big changes in filter pack between enlargers. In fact, expect a big change if your enlarger lamp goes and you put in a new one. Lights vary, even of the same type.

PE

Thank you for the insight!
I can attest to the filter pack changing when the enlarger lamp goes. I just blew a lamp and installed another one and I was amazed at the difference in filter settings to get the same result.
The more expensive bulbs were more consistent than the cheapies.

trendland · Jun 15, 2017

rpavich said:
What is with every 4. - 6. of your shots
twelvetone 12.
Does the shutter of your camera need an improvement ?

I know this problem from a cheap pentax me super from ebay. ........ (very cheap : $7,99).....

with regards

bvy · Jun 15, 2017

rpavich said:
Thank you for the insight!
I can attest to the filter pack changing when the enlarger lamp goes. I just blew a lamp and installed another one and I was amazed at the difference in filter settings to get the same result.
The more expensive bulbs were more consistent than the cheapies.

I concur. It's my experience too. I also believe that filtrations will shift gradually over the life of a bulb.

rpavich · Jun 15, 2017

trendland said:
Does the shutter of your camera need an improvement ?

I know this problem from a cheap pentax me super from ebay. ........ (very cheap : $7,99).....

with regards

Are you asking me about the white frames in my contact sheet?

Those are expodisc white balance shots. I use them to adjust the filter pack when printing. It's a great way to get perfect color without hunting around with tons of test strips.

Mr Bill · Jun 15, 2017

twelvetone12 said:
But it seems there is not much to read out there on color printing in the darkroom, and I'm not 100% sure I'm doing all the basics properly.

Hi, you might have a look at the book by Ctein, available for free download on his website (I'll look it up if you can't find it). I don't know of anything else remotely close with respect to the breadth of content in a single book, plus it is slanted towards someone doing their own printing on an enlarger (my own experience is mainly in a facility doing high volume portrait work, which I have sometimes describe as "a picture factory.")

Photo Engineer said:
When you make an exposure, always KEEP TIME CONSTANT! Vary the aperture. This helps insure constant color balance.

Yes, this is not often explained directly, but "production" printing machines were historically set up using "printer control negatives," aka slope negatives, etc. Basically they are an exposure series with a "normal" negative along with some over and underexposed negatives (all of the same controlled subject). You individually color correct each of the negatives so that the prints all match; although the machine uses different exposure times, it now "knows" how to correct the filtration as it does so. It's called printer "slope" adjustment. But as PE points out, a person printing on a manual enlarger is better off trying to hold exposure time constant.

With respect to finding your color and density adjustments quicker, I sometimes recommend making up a color/density "ring-around," using one of your typical negatives. This is a series of prints that you make using all of the basic color adjustments in several steps. For example, in red/cyan, you might print -20 cyan, --10 cyan, normal, +10 cyan, and +20 cyan. You do the same with magenta and yellow, as well as "density" (light to dark). Take a representative slice of each print and mount it on a board. This gives you a good visual reference of the effects, and is very helpful in calling out the ballpark adjustments needed on a new first print.

It's a lot of work to make the ring-around, but if you print enough it'll pay off.

One last note, I used to read that you should only make one change at a time. What I actually learned in industry is that professional color correctors don't work that way - they call out several changes at once, with the aim of getting as close as possible in one shot. Now, if you're trying to learn the effect of a specific change, by all means limit it to that. But if you've made a ring-around you already know the effects, so no need. Our correctors would seldom make more than two corrections; if they did, the last adjustment would typically only be about 2cc units while sending the "job" to print (I should point out that our work was all portraits from our own studios, so there is little ambiguity in how final color should look; in sunsets or landscapes or oddball lighting, things are much more open to interpretation.)

Best wishes on your printing.

trendland · Jun 15, 2017

rpavich said:
Are you asking me about the white frames in my contact sheet?

Those are expodisc white balance shots. I use them to adjust the filter pack when printing. It's a great way to get perfect color without hunting around with tons of test strips.

You are comming from Digital - am I right? Don't care about it !
White balance you will never more need
with film.
Remember a shooting with 16mm Motion
Picture Film Kodak 7239 (E6)......
My assistent adviced me every 15 min.
to check color balance because of the
deeper and deeper sun : "You have to filter this szene ....you have to filter now...pls do it imediately !!!
I didn't do it - because I can't afford
something like advices from assistence.
But to that time with many doubts.......

And the results? Answer : Yellow,Orange,
Orange - Red - phantastic !!!!

Deep sun light color look filmed at
deep sun athmosphere .

So never waste film to darkroom adjustments. IF YOU CALIBRATE YOUR
CONDENSOR LIGHT - I SEE NO REASSON
TO DO IT WITH FILM.

IF you calebrate darkroom work due to
orange mask it is ok to use one frame.

(IF YOU will not like to shoot a testchart -
just do it in your way)

But there is indeed NO need to calibrate
color temperature from different shots with a white frame.

Exeptions (like allways in live ) 3200 to 5600 degree Kelvin
changes - but as I see you use a camera filter.

with regards

PS :It will also work without compensation
filters (on camera) with c-41 not with
E6 !!!!

rpavich · Jun 15, 2017

trendland said:
You are comming from Digital - am I right? Don't care about it !
White balance you will never more need
with film.
Remember a shooting with 16mm Motion
Picture Film Kodak 7239 (E6)......
My assistent adviced me every 15 min.
to check color balance because of the
deeper and deeper sun : "You have to filter this szene ....you have to filter now...pls do it imediately !!!
I didn't do it - because I can't afford
something like advices from assistence.
But to that time with many doubts.......

And the results? Answer : Yellow,Orange,
Orange - Red - phantastic !!!!

Deep sun light color look filmed at
deep sun athmosphere .

So never waste film to darkroom adjustments. IF YOU CALIBRATE YOUR
CONDENSOR LIGHT - I SEE NO REASSON
TO DO IT WITH FILM.

IF you calebrate darkroom work due to
orange mask it is ok to use one frame.

(IF YOU will not like to shoot a testchart -
just do it in your way)

But there is indeed NO need to calibrate
color temperature from different shots with a white frame.

Exeptions (like allways in live ) 3200 to 5600 degree Kelvin
changes - but as I see you use a camera filter.

with regards

PS :It will also work without compensation
filters (on camera) with c-41 not with
E6 !!!!

Not sure what you said above but like I said...they allow me to dial in a perfect filter pack without any test strips.

trendland · Jun 15, 2017

rpavich said:
Not sure what you said above but like I said...they allow me to dial in a perfect filter pack without any test strips.

Different persons - different methods -
no problem at all.
But with too extended filtering as with
cameras or in darkroom you are killing
the light - athmospehere.
Sure you need true colors in c-41 printing in darkroom.
But you musn't have absolute white as
a white to every shot.
Because in nature there is no perfect white - it depends to color temperature
of the light.
A white ballance you made to some shots
is sometimes contraproductive.
As I saw your contact prints again I noticed they all are outdoor - perhaps you need more expensive films.....

Don't waste your films - thats what I meant.

with regards

FujiLove · Jun 16, 2017

I have a set of Kodak gelatine viewing filters that help with colour balancing the prints. You look through different ones until the print looks 'correct'. Each one is marked with the filter pack change required to affect the change. You can pick them up from eBay for peanuts.

I always say this on colour printing threads, but here goes again: there's no need to work in the dark. Colour safelights don't provide anywhere near the illumination of B&W versions, but it's plenty to see to move paper around and place negatives for contact printing etc.

I have a Jobo one connected to a foot switch so I can easily turn it on and off while I'm transferring paper between slots in my Nova tank. Again, there are loads of cheap ones on eBay.

trendland · Jun 16, 2017

FujiLove said:
I have a set of Kodak gelatine viewing filters that help with colour balancing the prints. You look through different ones until the print looks 'correct'. Each one is marked with the filter pack change required to affect the change. You can pick them up from eBay for peanuts.

I always say this on colour printing threads, but here goes again: there's no need to work in the dark. Colour safelights don't provide anywhere near the illumination of B&W versions, but it's plenty to see to move paper around and place negatives for contact printing etc.

I have a Jobo one connected to a foot switch so I can easily turn it on and off while I'm transferring paper between slots in my Nova tank. Again, there are loads of cheap ones on eBay.

Hey FujiLove this is indeed a practical advice of a kind wich will give a provit to
darkroom work.
I remember some coleges from electrical
department they often use an eye glass filter from "Lee" just to check the correct position of their lighting units.
But made from the history is this kind of glass filter with special neutral density,
to improve in an exact way the contrast of a lighted szene in regard to special emulsions.
It is like your advice to color corection in darkroom - a fine recomandation.
Thanks therefore.

with regards

PS : Nothing to say again All other recomandations.

Color printing procedure

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