Color negative ECN2 processing problem.

Tai · Sep 24, 2023

I just procrssed a roll of 5207(250d) film, here is the results, the center is ok i think, but the sides is green. i wonder what happened to my film? I am useing a old sovit foto tank, i can't pour in/out the chemicals quickly, maybe it's because of that?

koraks · Sep 24, 2023

Welcome to Photrio!

Uneven coverage of the film in chemistry is indeed one possibility. Fogging with light (something red or magenta) is another one. Since the problem occurs on both the top and bottom edge, it's more likely to be a problem associated with light fogging.

Does the entire roll exhibit the same problem and in the same severity?

What does the unexposed part of the leader (between the dense start of the film and the first frame) look like - is the problem present there as well, and what kind of pattern is visible? And the unexposed part after the last frame?

Also, and firstly, it's essential to exclude any problems associated with scanning/digitizing. For instance, I took the second image (the one showing the uninverted negative) and color corrected it into a positive:

Note that the cyan band at the bottom that is very visible in your image "(6).jpg" is much less severe in my version. This suggests that at least some of the problem is due to the digital files you're working with. Are you digitizing your negatives by photographing them with a digital camera? If so, you probably have a problem with your backlight, in particular flare around the film strip, distorting the colors in the image area. You may have to make a better film mask that doesn't allow any light to creep past the film.

Tai · Sep 24, 2023

Thanks for the answer, i'm using filmscanner. It's not in the same severity, some of the images is ok, this is the worst image that i get.

Tai · Sep 24, 2023

the unexposed part looks like this

koraks · Sep 24, 2023

Tai said:
he unexposed part looks like this

Ok, thanks; at least this makes it clear the problem also occurs between frames. But it's not what I meant - I'm sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. I mean what does the start of the film roll and the end look like? These bits:

In my image, the top strip is the start of the roll, the bottom strip is the end. In my case, the end part looks a bit funny because it's self-spooled film.
If you show yours, please indicate clearly which strip is the start of the film and which one is the end.

Tai said:
i'm using filmscanner

Assuming it works correctly, then we can probably assume the problem is on the negatives themselves.

Given the pattern of the apparent fogging, a problem with fogging to light is still the most likely.

Can you provide some additional information about the following:
* Where did you get the film from? Did it come in a 35mm cassette, ready for use, or did you spool it yourself from a large (100ft, 400ft or 1000ft) roll?
* In case you did any spooling or bulk loading yourself, can you give details about the process and equipment you used?
* Can you give additional information about the development tank you've used? You mention it's an old Soviet model, but can you be more specific and/or post images? Is the tank complete with a fully functioning light trap?
* When spooling the film onto the development reel, do you use a darkroom or a changing bag of some sort? Can you give specific information on this and also on how you have determined this is entirely free of any light sources that may fog film? Do you routinely use this space for processing other color film in the same way you did with this film?

Tai · Sep 24, 2023

Sorry I didn't understand you quite well. I bought it from local lab, so yes, it came ready for using. I developed a lot of B&W films with my photo tank, and it works just fine, so i don't think it has probelom. Also I developed a lot of B&W films in my darkroom, and they were fine. However do you think my developing process is all right? Did I do anything wrong?

Tai · Sep 24, 2023

Here's the unexposed part after my last one, please ignore the creases, I couldn't find scissors at the time so I ripped them off, thanks for the help!

koraks · Sep 24, 2023

Tai said:
However do you think my developing process is all right? Did I do anything wrong?

Difficult to say. I know nothing about your development process...nor do I know what your film looks like, what kind of materials you've used (apart from the tank) etc.

The first thing I'd like to check is if the fogging pattern is regular and is of the same width along the entire length of the film. For that reason, I asked to see the parts of the film I indicated. Scans don't help much because they generally don't show the full width of the film; the edges are generally not visible. I'd like to see the edges as well.

Tai said:
Here's the unexposed part after my last one

That's only a small bit of it. And I'd like to see the first section, and all the way up to the edges (see text above). Thanks.

Tai · Sep 24, 2023

Sorry, my camera is a mechanical camera and I have taken as many pictures as I could, I have not left many unexposed parts, nothing left in the the beginning, maybe the exposed part can help? .

Tai · Sep 24, 2023

Maybe i should take a another roll develop and see, thanks a lot dor help!

koraks · Sep 24, 2023

Hm, I see. Well, I see no very heavy fog along the edges of the small section of film you posted, although there seems to be a little cyan fog along the sprocket hole area and that would be consistent with your problem

Tai said:
my camera is a mechanical camera

Is there any chance your camera suffers from light leaks? E.g. due to decayed foam seals? Look especially for leaks in the area of the film take-up spool - the bit where you stick the film leader into when you load the roll.

It's still not clear to me where in the process the light leak (I'm almost sure it's a light leak) occurs.

If you're going to try another roll, see if you can use a different camera; one that you know is 100% in working order without any light leak issues.
Alternatively you could even process part of a roll without exposing it in a camera. Just pull it out of the cassette (in the dark), snip it off and load it onto the developing reel. This should exclude any problems with the camera.

Tai · Sep 24, 2023

koraks said:
If you're going to try another roll, see if you can use a different camera; o

Ok i will, thanks a lot for help.

koraks · Sep 24, 2023

Sure thing; I hope you'll run into some clues that will help solve the problem!

Tai · Sep 24, 2023

我刚刚找到了我之前拍摄的黑白照片，在齿孔的地方有两道细线（漏光）,也许这就是原因，Thank you very much, I've been plagued by this problem for a long time。

lamerko · Sep 25, 2023

This looks more like a development issue - the first seconds are important, maybe something there.
In another era, I worked with such photo tanks - the bakelite on the edges broke easily, as a result of which light began to leak. Also these tanks don't have inversion capability which maybe not good for color processing.

Tai said:
Sorry, my camera is a mechanical camera and I have taken as many pictures as I could, I have not left many unexposed parts, nothing left in the the beginning, maybe the exposed part can help? View attachment 349689.

Tai · Sep 25, 2023

Cool information, thanks, so the sides are over or underdeveloped? What should I do to avoid the problems?

koraks · Sep 25, 2023

lamerko said:
This looks more like a development issue - the first seconds are important, maybe something there.

I don't quite agree; why do you believe this is the case?
Slow tank pour issues I'd expect to show up on only one side of the film, and result in a more uneven pattern. In this case, the fogging is seemingly quite regular in nature and mirrors on both sides of the film.

Tai said:
so the sides are over or underdeveloped?

I doubt it. Can you describe in detail how you fill the tank, and how you agitate during development?

Tai said:
I just found the black white photo I took before, where there are two holes in the gap, maybe this is the reason

This suggests that there's something odd going on with something the film has experienced - either the camera or the development reel. Given how sharply delineated it is, I'd suspect something that drags across the film surface during transportation, and with this kind of regularity, I'd suspect it to happen in the camera and not on the development reel. It looks more like a mechanical problem than light fogging. Inspect the camera and verify that it properly transports the film. The film should not drag across sharp/pointy edges. If it's mechanical, I doubt it is the source of the cyan fog issue. That really points towards a light leak.

Tai · Sep 25, 2023

我的配方是：六偏磷酸钠2g亚硫酸钠2g溴化钾1.4g无水碳酸钠25.6g碳酸氢钠3g CD4 4g。40.1摄氏度显影2分50秒，剩余10秒倒出显影液。这卷胶片我没有怎么搅拌，只是在最后一刻才搅拌，因为我要准备终止液。

lamerko · Sep 25, 2023

koraks said:
I don't quite agree; why do you believe this is the case?
Slow tank pour issues I'd expect to show up on only one side of the film, and result in a more uneven pattern. In this case, the fogging is seemingly quite regular in nature and mirrors on both sides of the film.

These fragments are from chemistry, not light. It usually happens at the beginning of processing when there is no agitation.

koraks · Sep 25, 2023

lamerko said:
These fragments are from chemistry, not light.

No, they are due to bending/warping the film as he tore it off the spindle. He already told this (see post #7).

koraks · Sep 25, 2023

Tai said:
My formula is: sodium hexametaphosphate 2g sodium sulfite 2g potassium bromide 1.4g anhydrous sodium carbonate 25.6g sodium bicarbonate 3g CD4 4g. Develop at 40.1 degrees Celsius for 2 minutes and 50 seconds, and pour out the developer in the remaining 10 seconds. I didn’t stir this roll of film very much, except at the last minute because I had to prepare the stop solution.

(Could you please run your text through something like Google Translate before posting, please? It makes it easier for most visitors of this forum to read. Thank you!)

Are you sure you're using CD4 instead of CD3 in this developer? The formula you use is very similar to the ECN2 formula I use, although you're using about 10% more sodium bicarbonate. This will affect the developer pH. The switch of CD4 instead of the intended CD3 makes the developer far more active, and will result in color shifts and crossover. I have never tested this particular formulation, but I'm sure it will not yield standard ECN2 negatives. However, it is not a likely cause of the particular problem we're discussing presently.

You also said "I didn’t stir this roll of film very much". Are you sure? In that case, I'm with @lamerko in that this might be due to a problem with processing. All color processes rely on regular agitation, or even continuous agitation. 'Stand development' will NOT work.

Tai · Sep 25, 2023

Sorry for the typo, I used cd3 not cd4

koraks · Sep 25, 2023

Alright, understood! You may want to check the bicarbonate amount, but this is a detail and not the cause of your problems.

Tai · Sep 25, 2023

I found this formula in a book, but the book says the development temperature is 40.1 degrees C instead of 41.1, maybe because of that?
(ii) Colour display working fluid (SD-49)

Water

750ml

Kodak 4 Pit Calcium (sodium hexametaphosphate can be substituted) 2ml

Sodium sulphite anhydrous 2 g

Kodak 9* Anti Grey Zero Agent (3,5-Dinitrobenzoic Acid) 0.22 grams

Potassium bromide 1.4 g

Sodium carbonate anhydrous 25.6 g
Sodium bicarbonate 3g
CD3 4 g

Add water to 1000ml

pH=10.2±0.03

Tai · Sep 25, 2023

koraks said:
你还说“这卷胶卷我没怎么搅动”。你确定吗？

Yes, I'm sure, I did not stir it much, and I don't know why I left it so unstirred. Is that the cause of the problem?

Color negative ECN2 processing problem.

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