Color liquid emulsion

[MingMingPhoto]

Hi guys! What are some process ideas for color liquid emulsion? I know most processes have layers but I'm not looking to make anything super crisp I just want to experiment so be afraid to say anything - ty!

 

[halfaman]

I don't recall any color photographic process that doesn't have layers one way or another. In the Autochrome process the dyed potato starch grains configure the "color" layer, the other one is a B/W photosensitive emulsion.

 

[koraks]

What are some process ideas for color liquid emulsion?

My process ideas for this would be "give up before you start".

I know most processes have layers

For a reason.

You're not going to do color emulsions at home, let alone a liquid brush-on emulsion. Forget about it.

 

[Donald Qualls]

You're not going to do color emulsions at home, let alone a liquid brush-on emulsion. Forget about it.

Well, as noted in one of the Alternative Process threads, it is just possible to do Autochrome on an amateur basis. Very slow, limited resolution (due to the color screen filtration), and often funky colors, but possible. If you can make or buy a panchromatic or even orthopanchromatic emulsion (it might even be possible with ortho, using filtration similar to two-color Technicolor from the 1930s), and want to see just how hard this is, it's probably worth digging up that thread (it's had posts in the past few days, so should be near the top of the list over there).

 

[removed account4]

hi there
go to thelightfarm.com and poke around. Denise ( site owner and author of the book that is available on Blurb that is the liquid emulsion bible )shows how she made 3 different black and white emulsions and made trichomes from them, its pretty mind blowing what she does
there's also the idea of making your black layer with high contrast black and white emulsion and then doing gum over that ...
careful! you might be having 2 much fun by the end of it, and other photographic enthusiasts might not be happy about that
John

 

[Donald Qualls]

Ah, yes, I forgot trichomes, probably because I was thinking single exposure to be done on self-coated emulsion. Trichromes were done as early as the 1890s, and require only a little red sensitivity in the emulsion (though it's critical that the projection filtration or color in the gum layers match that of the original exposure if colors are to appear accurate). One major issue with trichromes, however, is that stuff moves between exposures...

 

[koraks]

Well, as noted in one of the Alternative Process threads...

Yes, I'm aware of the alternatives, possibilities that "sort of do a similar thing but not quite" etc. such as autochromes or trichromes/color separations. The former isn't really a proper color emulsion, but an emulsion with built-in filter array, essentially. Yeah, it sort of works, I know. If you put in 5 years of hard work to get an academically interesting but otherwise disappointing result altogether. Tri-chrome/separations: not a color emulsion. If we go that route, I wonder how long it'll take before people start suggesting gum bichromates, color carbon/carbro etc. Yeah, it's all color. We might as well be talking about toning B&W prints with three colors and call it 'color photography'.

I stick with what I said - home-made color emulsion: not going to happen.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I stick with what I said - home-made color emulsion: not going to happen.

Well, if you limit things to ones that work like modern C-41 emulsions, I completely agree. That took 80 years, more or less to go from the first trichromes to the earliest C-41 emulsions. Autochrome is as close as an amateur is likely to get -- it's amateur workable (yes, with a long learning curve) and single exposure.

Or I suppose one could use an interference color system like Lippman plates. Ordinary monochrome panchro emulsion with a mirror (originally, liquid mercury) behind the emulsion. That could be done with a hand-coated panchro or orthopanchro emulsion...

 

[MingMingPhoto]

so basically what you-guys are saying is the only method known is trichrome? can someone please link me to the proper chemicals?
also are there other methods?

Thank you everyone (but not Koraks for his bad attitude for a simple question)
I'm not really concenred about making a SUPER HIGH DEFINITION COLORS ACCUARATE TO .000000040 accuracy. I just want to 'suggest' shit and paint over the simulation and have some fun. Also wanna make prints to a rock if want lol
aRt BRo
but yeah please lmk all the methods please and maybe also link to the chemistry about your method! casue tbh I'm confused by a lot of the lingo going on here

 

[Donald Qualls]

If you don't need super resolution or accurate color, but do want handmade prints, tricolor gum is probably the easiest way to go. Get a tricolor filter set for a medium or preferably large format camera, a good solid tripod, a good meter, and get ready to learn to register negatives while you learn to do gum bichromate. It's not a difficult process (says the guy who hasn't done it), but there's a lot of tweaking before you get images that look anything other than "artistic."

 

[koraks]

(but not Koraks for his bad attitude for a simple question)

I'm being realistic. That's not a "bad attitude". Your question is anything but simple. Making you believe otherwise would have been irresponsible; I refuse to do this. I'm just putting it as plain and clear as it's ever going to be: you're not going to make a color emulsion at home.

 

[Kino]

You could try to recreate Dufay Color!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dufaycolor

Good luck!

 

[removed account4]

http://www.thelightfarm.com/cgi-bin/htmlgendiary.py?content=Journal3#timetraveler

you might want to get this book
https://www.blurb.com/b/6465389-the-light-farm
and this one if you want to do gum prints ( or virtually any other alternative process )
https://www.amazon.com/Book-Alterna...+photographic+processes&qid=1631740397&sr=8-1
and this site has info on gum printing if you want to go that route
https://www.alternativephotography.com/an-introduction-to-the-gum-bichromate-process/

you can make very nice color photographs doing these processes.
if you look in the gallery ( https://www.photrio.com/forum/media/users/andrew-oneill.1310/ ) Andrew O'Neil does gum printing tri color gum printing and his work is not fuzzy.

 

[MingMingPhoto]

Thank you so much everyone! If I do find the time to do some of these expeiemtns I'll let you know and sharemy results!

 

[Nodda Duma]

Easiest way to shoot color at home would be to make Lippmann plates. It is done with as basic, simple an emulsion as you can make. Look up the work by Nick Brandredth… he dug into them heavily last year.

C-41 or E-6 process type color film is so difficult to make that only the largest film manufacturers with resources and equipment set up in the heyday of film can manage them.

 

[MingMingPhoto]

Thank you!!

 

[Donald Qualls]

C-41 or E-6 process type color film is so difficult to make that only the largest film manufacturers with resources and equipment set up in the heyday of film can manage them.

Not to mention, as Fujifilm keeps reminding us, they often seem to depend on feedstock chemicals that are being banned for workplace safety or environmental reasons. One could make an argument that color film is on its way out even as "film" in general enjoys a resurgence.

 

[halfaman]

One could make an argument that color film is on its way out even as "film" in general enjoys a resurgence.

Film is resurging in general and 35 mm color film in particular....

 

[Donald Qualls]

Film is resurging in general and 35 mm color film in particular....

Sure. But many color emulsions seem to depend on chemicals that various nations have banned or announced upcoming bans for, or that are so specialized they're no longer profitable for suppliers to produce -- and there isn't enough production/sales volume to make it a good business decision for a company like Fujifilm to spend R&D money reformulating and exhaustively testing a replacement color emulsion. ECN-2 is seemingly doing better, in that if a movie production decides to shoot on film, this is what they'll use and they'll use thousands of feet for a single film -- but all it would take is for the US to ban a critical chemical or China to join the rest of the world in terms of worker safety or environmental protections, and we could lose all color films virtually overnight -- because that "business decision" that it doesn't make economic sense to spend R&D to reformulate and test a new emulsion to accommodate a discontinued feedstock chemical would override all the letter/email writing campaigns in the world.

 

[halfaman]

You made a point. Fujifilm is not a photographic company anymore, or "photocentric". The imaging solutions division, that includes digital and "analog" photographic business, represents 15% of the total revenue and income, it is the smallest contributor by far among all divisions. My impression is that it will be sold to some other owner in the mid-term like the Olympus camera business.

I think that film photography without color materials would become a mere curiosity.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I think that film photography without color materials would become a mere curiosity.

Maybe so -- but I'd be interested to know (if there's any way to confirm) whether there are actually more wet plate photographers working now than there were in 1870.

Between wet plate, homemade emulsions on glass and plastic, and alt-process printing, photography isn't going away -- color film or no.

And on the up side, I've read recent confirmation that a division of the new ORWO is actually developing a new ECN-2 film stock, and Cinestill has proven over the last few years (again, long after Seattle Film Works did) that this stock is very viable in at least the prosumer market.

I think there's a real possibility that C-41 will vanish and leave ECN-2 almost intact.

Meantime, as noted above, variations of Autochrome and Lippman plates are very much possible (and the latter more or less practical) for amateur DIY.

 

[MingMingPhoto]

Maybe so -- but I'd be interested to know (if there's any way to confirm) whether there are actually more wet plate photographers working now than there were in 1870.

Between wet plate, homemade emulsions on glass and plastic, and alt-process printing, photography isn't going away -- color film or no.

And on the up side, I've read recent confirmation that a division of the new ORWO is actually developing a new ECN-2 film stock, and Cinestill has proven over the last few years (again, long after Seattle Film Works did) that this stock is very viable in at least the prosumer market.

I think there's a real possibility that C-41 will vanish and leave ECN-2 almost intact.

Meantime, as noted above, variations of Autochrome and Lippman plates are very much possible (and the latter more or less practical) for amateur DIY.

How did you learn these things?

 

[MingMingPhoto]

hi there
go to thelightfarm.com and poke around. Denise ( site owner and author of the book that is available on Blurb that is the liquid emulsion bible )shows how she made 3 different black and white emulsions and made trichomes from them, its pretty mind blowing what she does
there's also the idea of making your black layer with high contrast black and white emulsion and then doing gum over that ...
careful! you might be having 2 much fun by the end of it, and other photographic enthusiasts might not be happy about that
John

This website tried to give my computer a virus, are you sure this is it?

 

[Lachlan Young]

I think there's a real possibility that C-41 will vanish and leave ECN-2 almost intact.

QTWTAIN

Remember that Inoviscoat also make C-41 materials for Lomo - ORWO tends to pursue the cinema market, and the price pressure is going to be less intense in cine - there is exactly one competitor currently. And getting an ECN-2 (CD-3 coupler) range of materials running has important implications in terms of opening up the potential manufacture of E-6 etc.

 

[removed account4]

This website tried to give my computer a virus, are you sure this is it?

weird, .. i've been going there for like 10 years never got a virus or any sort of warning ...
I went there just now too..
sorry to hear it gave you trouble ... its a great site and fantastic resource!

Maybe so -- but I'd be interested to know (if there's any way to confirm) whether there are actually more wet plate photographers working now than there were in 1870.

good luck with that