Color images from the 20's and 30's
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The history of silver-dye bleach (or dye destruction)
The first photographic product using dye destruction was the Swiss `Utocolor´ paper by J.H. Smith from 1910. It employed straight destruction by bleaching through light. Very insensitve, and not stable, due to its principle.
In 1918 J.H. Christensen arrived with a catalytical bleach process, which probably meant some boosting.
In the early 30ties Imre and Bela Gaspar came up with their catalytical process (silver originating from a plain silver-halide photographic process reduces (and thus destroyes) the dye; a process which is boosted by use of a catalyst.
In 1941 Kodak was busy with their own silver-dye bleach process.
In 1948 Ilford started work on their process.
In the late 50ties the Swiss Tellko company was working on such a process too.
After Ciba bought Ilford and Tellko that material was brought to the market.
The first photographic product using dye destruction was the Swiss `Utocolor´ paper by J.H. Smith from 1910. It employed straight destruction by bleaching through light. Very insensitve, and not stable, due to its principle.
In 1918 J.H. Christensen arrived with a catalytical bleach process, which probably meant some boosting.
In the early 30ties Imre and Bela Gaspar came up with their catalytical process (silver originating from a plain silver-halide photographic process reduces (and thus destroyes) the dye; a process which is boosted by use of a catalyst.
In 1941 Kodak was busy with their own silver-dye bleach process.
In 1948 Ilford started work on their process.
In the late 50ties the Swiss Tellko company was working on such a process too.
After Ciba bought Ilford and Tellko that material was brought to the market.
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Kino,
I read the link and agree with you that perhaps there are "other reasons".
Too bad, so sad, that to this day, after all that transpired over there, there remain folks that....
Kino,
You misunderstood what I tried to hint at. I did not intend to refer to the quality, but at the technical principle underlying it.
I on my behalve misunderstood that you took the view that the Gaspar process was something unique in photography as a technical principle.
You misunderstood what I tried to hint at. I did not intend to refer to the quality, but at the technical principle underlying it.
I on my behalve misunderstood that you took the view that the Gaspar process was something unique in photography as a technical principle.
Kino, copake_ham
I just read that linked document. It was new to me and very interesting, especially that hint at the “Farb-Ton-Kongress”.
That you link me to Nazi-chauvinism makes me sad…
Anyway, Gaspar is merely known in Germany. As all colour pioneers…
In one of my first posts I revealed the history of the chromogenic Agfacolor film. Read it. I can asure you I found no hint in literature that Gaspar patents were infringed. Actually, not knowing the Gaspar patents however, I don’t see how one can relate the silver-dye bleach process to a chromogenic process, with reference to patents. If someone has any substantial clue I will try to trace it.
I just read that linked document. It was new to me and very interesting, especially that hint at the “Farb-Ton-Kongress”.
That you link me to Nazi-chauvinism makes me sad…
Anyway, Gaspar is merely known in Germany. As all colour pioneers…
In one of my first posts I revealed the history of the chromogenic Agfacolor film. Read it. I can asure you I found no hint in literature that Gaspar patents were infringed. Actually, not knowing the Gaspar patents however, I don’t see how one can relate the silver-dye bleach process to a chromogenic process, with reference to patents. If someone has any substantial clue I will try to trace it.
AgX,
I intended no such slur. I merely linked to the site as one of the most comprehensive descriptions of Gaspar Color on the Net.
I guess I am naive, but I automatically assumed that the unfortunate history with Nazi Germany would be taken as a given and not emphasized.
The other reason I thought you might prefer Technicolor over Gaspar Color is that TC probably is more "realistic" (if that is a reasonable term) in natural color subjects than Gaspar Color.
I have no interest in devolving our conversation into a political debate and that was not my intent.
I just like Gaspar Color better, for what is worth.
I intended no such slur. I merely linked to the site as one of the most comprehensive descriptions of Gaspar Color on the Net.
I guess I am naive, but I automatically assumed that the unfortunate history with Nazi Germany would be taken as a given and not emphasized.
The other reason I thought you might prefer Technicolor over Gaspar Color is that TC probably is more "realistic" (if that is a reasonable term) in natural color subjects than Gaspar Color.
I have no interest in devolving our conversation into a political debate and that was not my intent.
I just like Gaspar Color better, for what is worth.
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Kino,
Politics are okay. I mean they should not be spared. Among my posts you’ll find several posts with political references. However reading the last post of copake_ham and that linked article that picture did arise as there was an anti Gaspar tendency over here and me advocating it. Anyway, being in the unfavourable position of one of the few Germans active here this of course ends in the situation of bringing up German themes. And be it only due to the ability of reading texts not understandable to the majority of members. This can come over as chauvinism.
From your posts I conclude that miles of film ran through your hands. Thus I appreciate your comments on film characteristics. Unfortunately I have not seen any kind of Gaspar material myself, only a few reproductions in books…
Politics are okay. I mean they should not be spared. Among my posts you’ll find several posts with political references. However reading the last post of copake_ham and that linked article that picture did arise as there was an anti Gaspar tendency over here and me advocating it. Anyway, being in the unfavourable position of one of the few Germans active here this of course ends in the situation of bringing up German themes. And be it only due to the ability of reading texts not understandable to the majority of members. This can come over as chauvinism.
From your posts I conclude that miles of film ran through your hands. Thus I appreciate your comments on film characteristics. Unfortunately I have not seen any kind of Gaspar material myself, only a few reproductions in books…
Kino,
You stated that Gasparcolor was more saturated than Technicolor.
Have you got any ideas why? Was this inherent to the processes or chosen?
The dyes were similar in their characteristics. Or rather, could have been.
I also thought of the fact that in that sort of imbibitionprocess the dyes blend within each other. But that should not change the filtration ability.
It could have been that Technicolor intentionally aimed at less saturated hues (you hinted at their better reproduction of natural objects) by the choice of the dyes concentration.
You stated that Gasparcolor was more saturated than Technicolor.
Have you got any ideas why? Was this inherent to the processes or chosen?
The dyes were similar in their characteristics. Or rather, could have been.
I also thought of the fact that in that sort of imbibitionprocess the dyes blend within each other. But that should not change the filtration ability.
It could have been that Technicolor intentionally aimed at less saturated hues (you hinted at their better reproduction of natural objects) by the choice of the dyes concentration.
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From my recollection didn't Agfa figure out a process similar to E6 just before the 2nd world war and then after the war Kodak basically stole that process. I think Kodachrome is really awesome, but a labor intensive process in comparison to E6.
In the mid thirties two chromogenic subtractive three-layer films were released.
1935 Kodachrome with colour couplers in the developer
and
1936 Agfacolor (Neu) with colour couplers integrated into the emulsion.
The basic principle was invented long before, but only then the two companies achieved ways to overcome the principle problem inherent to such films.
See my very early post on the Agfacolor history.
The E-6 films are far! descendants of that Agfacolor film. The C-41 and E-6 films use another technique to hold those couplers in their very layer but they employ the same principle, namely to yield the couplers in the emulsion layers.
Kodak never used that Agfacolor process. Though knowledge gained.
Immediately after the end of the fighting special squads of all! victorious states swept Germany looking for files and people of technical interest to them.
1935 Kodachrome with colour couplers in the developer
and
1936 Agfacolor (Neu) with colour couplers integrated into the emulsion.
The basic principle was invented long before, but only then the two companies achieved ways to overcome the principle problem inherent to such films.
See my very early post on the Agfacolor history.
The E-6 films are far! descendants of that Agfacolor film. The C-41 and E-6 films use another technique to hold those couplers in their very layer but they employ the same principle, namely to yield the couplers in the emulsion layers.
Kodak never used that Agfacolor process. Though knowledge gained.
Immediately after the end of the fighting special squads of all! victorious states swept Germany looking for files and people of technical interest to them.
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AGFAColor Neu [sp.?] was similar to E6 only in that it was a chromogenic process (couplers built into the emulsion), though I believe the similarities end there.
I've not heard that Kodak stole the process, though I'd assume that they probably utilized some of AGFA's research and such.
I'm sure that there are other users here that know a lot more than i do about this.
I've not heard that Kodak stole the process, though I'd assume that they probably utilized some of AGFA's research and such.
I'm sure that there are other users here that know a lot more than i do about this.
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The story of the Kodachrome development by two musicians is fascinating, but I thought the holygrail of color film was to figure out how to have color couplers integrated into the emulsion.
One could question to what extend they both were still amateurs, hardcore ones they were in any case.
But I would have loved to have seen those faces of the people of Kodak's R&D when these two men were given resources (and authority?) there.
Actually, how old is PE...?
(PE, please forgive me I just could not resist that.)
But I would have loved to have seen those faces of the people of Kodak's R&D when these two men were given resources (and authority?) there.
Actually, how old is PE...?
(PE, please forgive me I just could not resist that.)
Dufaycolor again
The people making Ilford film (Harman) are watching this forum....maybe they could be coaxed into coating HP5 emulsions on a reseau?
Jay
The people making Ilford film (Harman) are watching this forum....maybe they could be coaxed into coating HP5 emulsions on a reseau?
Jay
By sheer accident I just stumbled over this patent for a random mosaic colour film. (It employs such ultrasonic dispersing/emulgating techniques I hinted at above.):
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6387577-description.html
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6387577-description.html
Back to Polaroid...
One could question whether to use those Polachrome films without the chemical pod etc. and play around with own reversing development. This would not be feasible.
As to my understanding the Polachrome films are made this way:
Clear base (through which the film is exposed)
Additive line grid
Receptive layer (containing fogging agents)
Sensitive layer (high gammy and Dmax)
For processing this is coated with processing agents
and covered with a second film strip
The process is basically the same as with the original Polaroid B&W systems:
a speedy negative development going along with an image transfer (sub-type: AgX diffusion) and creation of the complementary image in the receptive layer
After development/image transfer the second film strip is torn off again, however taking with it the sensitive layer containing the formed negative
(With its predecessor, the Polavision cine film, it could have been that the negative is not taken off but bleached out. I've no idea how this could have worked.)
The above is pure guess work! So correct if I’m wrong!
One could question whether to use those Polachrome films without the chemical pod etc. and play around with own reversing development. This would not be feasible.
As to my understanding the Polachrome films are made this way:
Clear base (through which the film is exposed)
Additive line grid
Receptive layer (containing fogging agents)
Sensitive layer (high gammy and Dmax)
For processing this is coated with processing agents
and covered with a second film strip
The process is basically the same as with the original Polaroid B&W systems:
a speedy negative development going along with an image transfer (sub-type: AgX diffusion) and creation of the complementary image in the receptive layer
After development/image transfer the second film strip is torn off again, however taking with it the sensitive layer containing the formed negative
(With its predecessor, the Polavision cine film, it could have been that the negative is not taken off but bleached out. I've no idea how this could have worked.)
The above is pure guess work! So correct if I’m wrong!
AgX, that patent link is great; pretty much exactly what we've all been talking about.
And, ZorkiKat, I like the idea of having Ilford coat HP5 on a Reseau
.
But, in all seriousness, I wonder if it would be possible to have them (or someone) do it?
And, ZorkiKat, I like the idea of having Ilford coat HP5 on a Reseau
.But, in all seriousness, I wonder if it would be possible to have them (or someone) do it?
Correction
As fogging agents are per definition substances which cause fogging due to their impact on silver halide crystals, those agents I had in mind should rather be called nuclei-forming substances, as the silver halides (made soluble by fixer complexing) diffusing into the receptive layer are ionic, and it is these ions that take part in the development process which is started at nuclei formed by solid metals incorporated in the receptive layer.
As fogging agents are per definition substances which cause fogging due to their impact on silver halide crystals, those agents I had in mind should rather be called nuclei-forming substances, as the silver halides (made soluble by fixer complexing) diffusing into the receptive layer are ionic, and it is these ions that take part in the development process which is started at nuclei formed by solid metals incorporated in the receptive layer.
another correction…
Of course this is nonsense concerning the two most famous materials with integrated screens…
For those it must rather be: base, screen, emulsion
Though a screen on the emulsion would have made production then more flexible. And of course would made obsolete that focussing issue. (One could overcome this with plates and springbacks by inserting a plain plate while focussing.) Those systems employing a separate screen on the emulsion had rather the issue of negative/positive processing as primary goal on mind.
With the Agfa Farbenplatte (and later the film based version) the problem is obvious. A closed resin layer on top of the emulsion would hamper processing. For the Autochrome with those starch globuli the cause might the process of transferring those, or difficulties in enclosing them within a protecting gelatin layer. I don’t know.
(Interesting: I don’t remember to have found any reference by Polaroid for their Polachrome films to that difference in focus…)
Of course this is nonsense concerning the two most famous materials with integrated screens…
For those it must rather be: base, screen, emulsion
Though a screen on the emulsion would have made production then more flexible. And of course would made obsolete that focussing issue. (One could overcome this with plates and springbacks by inserting a plain plate while focussing.) Those systems employing a separate screen on the emulsion had rather the issue of negative/positive processing as primary goal on mind.
With the Agfa Farbenplatte (and later the film based version) the problem is obvious. A closed resin layer on top of the emulsion would hamper processing. For the Autochrome with those starch globuli the cause might the process of transferring those, or difficulties in enclosing them within a protecting gelatin layer. I don’t know.
(Interesting: I don’t remember to have found any reference by Polaroid for their Polachrome films to that difference in focus…)
Martin Reed
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