Color Enlarging- critical white balance

[Pastiche]

"C" print.
color negative (mitsubishi 100ISO)
color enlarger - (dammit the name eludes me.. sounds like Stander... S______ )


OK.. so.. I've been in the color darkroom for a little over six months.. and am NOT going back...

thus far, everything's been peachy with white balancing my negs using only Magenta and Yellow... I can't think of one neg that I've needed to bring in Cyan in order to correct....

The issue is this...

There is this print I'm working on.. it's a bunch of sliced up magazine pages loose on a sheet of white foam core..

I've gotten the whites ALMOST perfectly white, but not perfectly.
There is this BLUEISH cast to the white - NEAR THE MIDDLE OF THE PRINT

at the edges, where there is some fall off, the print is acceptably white.

I understand what's happening - I'm enlarging a 35mm neg up to 16x20 (50mm lens, f/2.8, the head is raised 90" above the base), and there is light fall off happening from the middle to the edges of the print..

what is frustrating me is: when the exposure is correct for the center of the print, the whites turn bluish, and where I'm loosing some of the exposure to falloff, the whites are acceptably white...



SO - if I give the print a little less exposure, the whites stay white. if I expose the print properly (15s) the whites turn blueish in the middle of the print...

my settings are

C: 0
M: 50
Y: 60

IN THEORY, I should be able to lower the yellow filtration, right.... or increase both the magenta and cyan... but I did not see any results I liked when I started playing with the c/m dials... my reds started looking wonky...

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I guess another way of framing the question is this:

1) IF one color balances "perfectly" should the length of exposure affect the whites?

i.e. if I get my color balance DEAD ON, should my whites not just turn progressively darker and darker while maintaining a neutral gray tone?

2) is it possible to achieve such a balance?

3) under what conditions would I NEED to use the cyan filtration in order to correctly color balance my enlargements?


Thanks to any and all in advance...

 

[Nick Zentena]

White foam? Is it really white? Did you use flash?

 

[Pastiche]

yah... it's white... daylight balanced film, commercially processed... flash...

the issue is - it IS white, at just a little less exposure than I need for the print...
In doing exposure testing I tried lowering the times from 16 seconds to 12 seconds.. in 1 second intervals (between tests)... and while I eventually got the whites to look GREAT, the shadows were then underexposed...

ahhhhhhh....

that may have hit on a work around for this issue... decrease the max density of the neg... (I have no idea how to do this w/o underexposing another shot like the one I'm trying to enlarge) .. ... and so doing I would get the proper skin tones I wish for, but still have not reached the point where my whites begin to "burn down" into this seeming latent color cast.... (re-reading this... sounds fishy)


hhmmmm.... still does not quite get at my real issue -



To rephrase the question :

Assuming you have a blank piece of (color) film:
Once you achieve (perfect) color balance, should you be able to burn the whites all the way down to blacks, without there being a color shift??

 

[jd callow]

not that it helps you much, but color balance is done in the mids not the whites. If it is truly white then print proper density means that there won't be any cast.



"Once you achieve (perfect) color balance, should you be able to burn the whites all the way down to blacks, without there being a color shift?"

The answer is: In my experience not without having to adjust the filter pack. As the time increase the lamp colour temperature (usually yellow) will begin needing compensation. It isn't unusual for a strong dodge and a heavy burn to require different filter packs from each other as well as the main exposure even though the same areas look neutral, albeit light or dark prior to the burn and dodge.

 

[davetravis]

Pastiche,
The old color adage "determine density before you balance the color" seems to apply here.
In my experience, the falloff out on the edges can be compensated with more or less exposure, once you're happy with that "perfect white." It normally runs between 20 and 30 % depending on the enlargement factor. In your case, I would adjust the overall exposure/filter pack for the primary white area, then burn/dodge around the edges to "bring them up" to match. This is what I do, and assuming the chems are consistent, it should work for you.
Good luck,
DT

 

[panastasia]

I once shot a roll of color negative film that was taken from the freezer and not allowed to warm-up properly and I ran into a similar problem - a noticeable color shift around the edges of the film - and never could get a print with consistent color balance, edge-to-edge, from that roll. The problem obviously occurred when the film was exposed. I sometimes live and learn the hard way.

 

[Neal]

Dear Patiche,

1) Unfortunately, the exposure does affect the color balance.

2) Usually.

3) When you print slides directly to Ilfochrome.

I share your frustrations. :>)

Neal Wydra

 

[sepiareverb]

I'd make your regular print, then make a second print where you ignore the center and get the edges just right, with the white to match your first print. Then make the first print as before and burn with filtration adjusted to get your edges right. I'm still pretty new to color printing again (after 25 years!) but this would be my approach.

 

[panastasia]

Pastiche,

It sounds like you may be a number of issues regarding color balance. If your not using stabilized current to your enlarger your difficulties would be compounded, leading to discouragement in the long run. sepiareverb offers a good suggestion, otherwise!

Regards,
Paul

 

[Pastiche]

Thank you all for your recommendations.

There are a variety of approaches offered in the replies thus far, and it will take ma a bit to get through trying these...

basically, I hear: print, adjust color pack, dodge/burn . . .. .

I can dig it.


THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU..

 

[Mick Fagan]

Pastiche, using the Y & M filters with colour negatives is correct and means your negative appears to have been developed correctly.

If you add a third filter, the C filter, you are only adding neutral density and this requires more exposure to get a correct density.

If you add 30 units of all three filters, you have added 1 stop of neutral density, this is a handy feature in that it enables you to keep enlarging times constant, which in some cases can ensure there are no colour shifts with different times.

If you did this your filters would look like this:-

C 30

M 80

Y 90

And you would have to expose for one more stop of time, which in this case, would be 30 seconds.

There is one feature of colour negative enlarging not known by a lot of early colour printers like yourself, the third colour!

When you adjust your Yellow & Magenta filtration to get correct colour you are inadvertently (usually) adjusting the third colour Cyan.

The third colour filter is not used, instead density adjustments make the print more Red or Cyan.

Adding Density (time) will make the print more Red, reducing density, will make the print more Cyan.

The light falloff you are talking about, could be the effect of less density, allowing a Cyan (not Blue) cast occurring.

Just some food for thought.

Be careful regarding Cyan and Blue casts, they are different and take a while to figure out, just like Magenta and Red casts are different, but sometimes they look the same as well!

One thing you may think about, if you haven't done it yet, is to make a colour ring'a'round of colour casts, this will give you a correct cast for reference.

For example if the cast is bluish and cold looking is it a Cyan or Blue cast? By looking at you own test prints you will quickly ascertain the cast and can then change the filtration with confidence.

Another possible way to alleviate a light fall off when enlarging, is to use a larger lens like a 75/80mm or 105mm and then your 35mm neg will be in a sweet spot of intense light. From my personal experience, light fall off from huge enlargements can sometimes benefit from this procedure, as does a glass holder.

Mick.

 

[Pastiche]

thanks mick... I'll add that to the pile of info and let it all smolder for a few days till I get my arse back in the darkroom on Wed...

 

[panastasia]

Be careful regarding Cyan and Blue casts, they are different and take a while to figure out, just like Magenta and Red casts are different, but sometimes they look the same as well!
Mick.

Mick makes a good point. Here is a two step color rule:

For prints with a bluish cast: (assume the color cast is blue)
Step 1. Correct for blue
Step 2. Correct for green

If the original print was too blue, step #1 will result in a good print. If the original print was cyan, step #1 will result in a green print, which can be corrected by step #2. Note: blue + green = cyan


For prints with a reddish cast: (assume the color cast is magenta)
Step 1. Correct for magenta
Step 2. Correct for yellow

If the original print was too magenta, step #1 will result in a good print. If the original print was red, step #1 will result in a yellow print, which can be corrected by step #2. Note: magenta + yellow = red

Good luck!
Paul

 

[jd callow]

Another 2-step colour rule.

1) Get RGBCMY viewing filters and use them
and or
2) learn to recognize a colour cast

Not to be a smart ass, but it has got to be tough to do colour correction without one or both.

 

[panastasia]

Another 2-step colour rule.

1) Get RGBCMY viewing filters and use them
and or
2) learn to recognize a colour cast

Not to be a smart ass, but it has got to be tough to do colour correction without one or both.

jd,

Your right about that. Good advice! Even the professional has difficulty determining the color cast of a print when the cast is a blue/cyan or red/magenta.

I no longer print in color, but I remember how the filters were a blessing.