Color Developer Quest

Here's one from my second roll (without other people's kids). This is a straight scan - just resized in GIMP. Any small blue dots are a problem that sometimes happens with this old Jobo tank and I need to replace it.

PE, newcan1 was trying the BTAZ as a restrainer. IDK if he decided it was a good move or not! I added just the tiniest pinch of BZAT to my developer and I think it's a little sharper - but that's just an opinion. Hard to tell without a true A/B test. [ And without the first roll being short by an 11 year old ] Otherwise my formula is straight from the "ECN-2 for Pictorial Use" thread.

KB3LMS, this is a good result. Slightly greenish, like the results I get with various stocks. But easily correctable.

I think I am at using benzotriazole at 2.5mg/L. Even at 5mg/L I seem to get a bit of speed loss. I don't know if it is doing anything at this low concentration, but my sense is that there is a slight improvement. I am also adding Calgon (sodium hexametaphosphate) at 2g/L.

I developed some Fuji Reala 500D using BZT at 5g/L and got an effective film speed of only around 125/160ASA. But the colors were very accurate. I'm going to do another roll today if I have time, with 2.5g/L BZT, and see if there is an improvement in effective film speed. The film has probably lost some speed because of age anyway.

kb3lms said:

@newcan1: Was this the final formula that you ended up using?

Distilled Water 21 to 38°C (70 to 100°F): 850mL
Sodium Hexametaphosphate: 2.0g
Sodium Sulfite (Anhydrous): 2.0g
Potassium Bromide (Anhydrous): 1.4g
Sodium Carbonate (Anhydrous): 25.6g
Sodium Bicarbonate: 2.7g
Benzotriazole: 5mg
CD-3: 5.2g
Distilled Water to make
1L

Also, any thoughts on the 2 part developer?

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This looks right except BZT at 2.5mg/L and I will check the sodium carbonate level.

I have pre-mixed a concentrate at 10 times these levels of everything except the CD3. That is now my "two part" formula. 100ml plus say 800ml water, then dissolve the CD3 in a small amount of water, add, and top up to 1L. 10 times is pushing it as the sodium carbonate almost doesn't want to dissolve. But it works fine, and makes it easy to mix various quantities (eg., 35ml concentrate to 350ml working solution, just calculate the CD3 accordingly).

Photo Engineer said:

No color neg-pos developer contains BTAZ as far as I know.

Also, the pH is critical for color to balance the 9 emulsions and therefore should be specified in any formula.

PE

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I will need to get a pH meter -- I can only "ballpark" the pH using test strips at present, and while my results are eminently useable, I accept I won't get perfect color balance in the negative without fine tuning the pH.

pH meters

I have been using one of these pH meters. http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-MINI-Pe...506?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c38246f2
It's better than strips but not sure how good they really are.
When calibrated with the solutions they seem right on but don't have many digits.

...But it works fine, and makes it easy to mix various quantities (eg., 35ml concentrate to 350ml working solution, just calculate the CD3 accordingly).

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Are you using it one-shot, then? I am not. I figured 10-12 rolls per liter and then dump like C-41. For the record, that shot above is from roll #2 on that liter just after adding the BZT. My scale is not really accurate at the 5mg level but I believe I have added a pinch in the 2-5 mg range. It was very,very little.

I didn't pick up on the green cast last evening but now looking at it again this morning I do notice it. Are we concluding that the green cast is due to pH issues? I need to get a meter as well and will look at the link posted above.

Another thing I did pick up on when cutting the negs last night is that the orange mask on roll #2 has a more magenta cast than roll #3. I will have to compare to roll #1. Didn't have any more time last night to scan any of roll #3 at all. All the rolls are from the same bulk roll of 5207 so the difference must be due to something in the processing procedure or a change in the chemistry. Roll #2 was processed Sunday evening and Roll #3 on Monday night. I process quite a bit of C-41 and do not normally notice differences in the mask color between rolls of the same stock. (ie out of the same box) But I'm also working out the kinks in my ECN 2 process.

Could the RemJet removal prebath have any effect on the color balance? I'm using the Sodium Carbonate prebath right out of Kodak's documents.

Are there any of these movie films that do not have the remjet coating?

Does the sodium carbonate pre bath get the remjet off without any mechanical scrubbing at all?

I find that even the cheap pH meter I mentioned above is invaluable when making scratch solutions.

BTAZ and incorrect pH can both cause a color shift.

PE

cinejerk said:

Are there any of these movie films that do not have the remjet coating?

Does the sodium carbonate pre bath get the remjet off without any mechanical scrubbing at all?

I find that even the cheap pH meter I mentioned above is invaluable when making scratch solutions.

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As far as I know, all color negative movie films (certainly all the ones from Kodak) have the RemJet coating. The 100D reversal film does not, and the Double-X B&W film does not.

Supposedly it's possible to soak and agitate off the RemJet, without any mechanical scrubbing. The real movie film processing machines do it with a soak and a water-jet scrubbing. Seems to me the biggest issue is with removing the RemJet from the film and processing tanks/solutions thoroughly after removing it from the film.

Duncan

I've been removing the RemJet by allowing a 2:00 soak in Kodak's Sodium Carbonate prebath at 85 degrees F followed by four (or more) 106 degree (developer temp) water washes, each wash about 30 seconds vigorously agitated - as in swirl and shake. The first wash after the prebath will come out inky-black, the second much a clearer gray and the third will start to be lightly stained pink. Basically I wash until the wash runs clear. Four or five washes seem to do it. There is no trace of RemJet on my film, reels or tank.

I read about this procedure here or on one of the other forums where IIRC the poster was talking about processing Kodachrome. IDK if 2:00 is required or less time would work. It's just what I have used.

The prebath formula is listed on page 7-34 in the h2407 document. I am skipping the Anti-Cal but using distilled water. Interestingly, the prebath dumps out stained very pink with no trace of RemJet, and it seems you can reuse it. The RemJet dumps in the first water wash and I assume this is by design so as not to contaminate the prebath stage in a processing machine.

Another curiosity, I am using Formulary Odorless Stop Bath at the moment with 20 g/l of sulfite added. On roll #1, I had not added the sulfite and the stop turned pink. Upon adding the sulfite (see above about sulfite clearing) before roll #2, the pink stain disappeared and the stop has reamined clear on rolls 2 and 3. Maybe PE can shed some light on why this happened.

Also note that I use a water wash between each step in the process whether the "official" process calls for it or not. If no wash is called out, I at least fill the tank with water and swirl it around for 10 or 20 seconds and dump to reduce chemical crossover between solutions.

Acidified color developer in the presence of air turns pink. Addition of Sulfite turns it colorless.

BTW, the stop for ECN is Sulfuric Acid.

PE

OK a few observations:

1. I do a water pre-soak with Kodak films, but do not do a carbonate pre-bath, because it won't remove the remjet anyway (at least I have not tried the vigorous agitation method above). With Fuji, another story - the remjet simply melts away into the developer with my Reala and Eterna Vivid stocks, so I may use a carbonate bath to capture it first. With Kodak I remove remjet at the end using a soft 4x4in printer's cotton pad and warm running water - ideal for the task.

You may recall I added BZT to try to see if it would diminish my green color cast. I had started this thread because of the green cast with my EXR 200T stock! The BZT either helps a bit or does nothing at all, I am not sure, at the 2.5mg/L level. By the way, to get an accurate amount at this level, I added 5mg to 500ml and I take 1cc of this stock to 3cc water, and use 1cc of the result per liter of working solution. You may recall I added a bit because I do not have AF-2000.

As for whether I use one shot processing: yes and no. I will often mix 500cc developer and use it twice, but seldom three times. Mixing from scratch, the developer is pretty inexpensive. I re-use the bleach a LOT. I find the stop bath and sulfite clearing baths are only good for one or two uses. I must remember to get some more sulfuric acid - I assume I can use battery acid from an auto parts store, if I know its dilution?

I also did an experiment in which I increased sodium carbonate a little, but I don't think it had much effect on color balance. My test strips indicate a pH close to 11 without the extra carbonate, which is higher than the pH in the Kodak formula literature, but without a test meter there isn't much I can do to refine experimentation here, except maybe reducing sodium carbonate to see what happens. I will take a look at the link cinejerk provided re: pH maters - I don't have a big budget for this. One problem is that the color casts vary depending on the stock I use. For example, my Reala 500D has a slight reddish cast. My EXR 200T has a green cast a bit more pronounced than KB3LMS's image, but the film is old - manuf. 1994. SO it could to some extent have to do with age and storage issues as well as anything else.

As we are in experimentation mode --- my C41 recipe uses a bit of potassium iodide. An I correct that this affects the intensity of yellow? Maybe I should put some of this into my ECN-2 brew to see if I can un-green the green a little?

BTW, the stop for ECN is Sulfuric Acid.

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I know. I just don't have any as of yet.

BTW, is there a cheap way to get sulfuric acid (like at Wally World or HD) in some product under another name - like methanol is sold as fuel line anti-freeze? I'm on restrictions from the "accounting department" at the moment and am not allowed to purchase any more chemicals till May.

I'm pretty sure you can get battery acid at AutoZone. That's what I was inclined to try unless anyone suggests otherwise

PE, do you think that sodium bisulfate would be a good substitute? I remember using it as a sulfuric acid substitute with my chemistry set as a kid. (Yes, back in the day, kids were allowed to do dangerous things).

Battery acid is 37% Sulfuric Acid, and is pretty pure. It is also very expensive. It can be had in large containers at Home Depot.

The pH of the Bisulfate may not be low enough.

Rem Jet particles can become trapped in the emulsion and therefore should be removed ASAP to prevent defects in the final image.

Look at the control charts for the effect of too much antifoggant (of any type) and it will help you understand the color shifts possible.

PE

PE, forgive my ignorance -- but where does one find the control charts to which you refer?

Battery acid is about $12/liter at autozone, I think. Perhaps I should shop around and see what is cheaper out there. I've not seen it at Home Depot, but then again, I never looked for it there either.

I'm going to try the early remjet removal method described above. I've not had problems with it getting into emulsion, but it does rather mess the tank up.

I think PE is referring to the control charts and information in the h2408 document.

Jason

Interesting ------ of course, with manual home process, I fear there will always be minor variations that cannot be controlled precisely. On a first look at the charts, it would seem that if a green bias is prevalent, developing for slightly too long a time is better than slightly too short, and at slightly too high a temp is better than too low. It also seems that certain variations affect the two test emulsions quite differently.

The pH data is interesting, it would suggest that too high a pH could push toward green (at least with 5217). That could be my problem. But who knows - way too many variables. And I am using many different emulsions.

kb3lms said:

I've been removing the RemJet by allowing a 2:00 soak in Kodak's Sodium Carbonate prebath at 85 degrees F followed by four (or more) 106 degree (developer temp) water washes, each wash about 30 seconds vigorously agitated - as in swirl and shake. The first wash after the prebath will come out inky-black, the second much a clearer gray and the third will start to be lightly stained pink. Basically I wash until the wash runs clear. Four or five washes seem to do it. There is no trace of RemJet on my film, reels or tank.

I read about this procedure here or on one of the other forums where IIRC the poster was talking about processing Kodachrome. IDK if 2:00 is required or less time would work. It's just what I have used.

The prebath formula is listed on page 7-34 in the h2407 document. I am skipping the Anti-Cal but using distilled water. Interestingly, the prebath dumps out stained very pink with no trace of RemJet, and it seems you can reuse it. The RemJet dumps in the first water wash and I assume this is by design so as not to contaminate the prebath stage in a processing machine.

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OK, I played around with this a bit today. I don't have a scale, but I figured this wasn't a precision formula since it just softens the RemJet... so I winged it a bit. Here is the formula we're talking about (click to open bigger):



I assumed that the chemicals weighed the same as water (incorrect, but close enough for this...) and measured out 1 TBsp + a little bit of baking soda, then measured out 3 times that amount of Sodium Carbonate (in the form of PH Adjuster for pools) and topped it up to 1 liter of water at 85 degrees. I took some scrap unprocessed movie film and soaked it for 2 minutes. As he said above, the prebath solution pours back out completely clear - the RemJet is still on the film, it's just very very soft now. Any water at all on it just completely removes it instantly. No chunks, no flakes, it just completely dissolves in fresh water and turns the water black, and goes away with the water. Nice!

Duncan

Duncan;

We laid our film on a lab counter top, emulsion side down and then just swabbed the back with a soft wet sponge.

Or, we used a sponge soaked in that carbonate solution, and then wiped both sides down with it twice, once with the wetted sponge and again with a fresh clean wetted sponge.

Either of these avoided having rem jet getting on the front of the film.

Also, please note that the pH may be critical as the alkaline prewet can change the response of the film in the developer due to a pH effect.

PE

Update: I think I am going to scrap the benzotriazole in my ECN-2 experimental formula. It really doesn't seem to do anything positive, and in some cases, even at very low concentrates, it seems to cause speed loss. Most of my Kodak stocks didn't seem to suffer much, but my Fuji Reala 500D seemed to be only about 64ASA with just 1.25mg/L BZT in the mix. I don't know if that was causing the film's speed problem (I have another thread here on that). But when I eliminated BZT and the pre-soak and their following rinses, and developed for a tad longer (3.5min), the Reala now seems to have a speed around 250ASA (that's an anecdotal, unscientific assessment). Acceptable if it is about 10 years old.

I wonder if high speed films like that have something in them that a pre-wash could wash out, that affects speed? The post-prebath rinses looked very yellow.

Otherwise, it would seem the BZT may have had an undue effect on this emulsion, and as it doesn't really do anything quantifiably good, I left it out and will do so in future. I guess it's time to see if I can get my hands on some AF-2000.

Also, please note that the pH may be critical as the alkaline prewet can change the response of the film in the developer due to a pH effect.

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Meaning that one would want to be sure the pH of the prebath is 10. Makes sense as the prebath would soak into the emulsion and thereby change the pH of the developer - at least initially, right? And I am also thinking, therefore, that time in the prebath would matter due to the amount of prebath soaking into the gelatin.

The developer calls for a pH of 10.25 @ 25 C, so if the pH of the prebath is much different from that is probably going to affect development.

From some of the suggestions above and in the control charts, pH is going to affect color balance and I suppose possibly giving the green cast that is showing up. 2:00 in the pre-bath may well be more than enough to loosen the remjet. I don't think 10 sec as called for in the specs will be enough for sink processing but maybe between 0:30 and 1:00? Guess I'll sacrifice a couple of feet and see what works. Using my soak and wash process at 2:00 I have NO remjet anywhere on the film so that will be the benchmark I will start with.

If the pH of the prebath needed to be adjusted, what would you guys suggest? My pH meter shipped yesterday. Maybe it'll show up today.

Jason

I haven't bought a pH meter yet but will do this week. I had assumed that whatever the pH of the prebath, a good enough rinse afterwards would remove it so that its pH might not be critical. But it looked like a lot of yellow dye or something was being removed with the rinses.

I don't use prebath with C-41, I just warm the dry tank, and this seems to give better results. I have done plain water pre-soak with ECN-2 and I thought this to be an effective way to raise the tank temperature and mitigate temperature drop when the dev. goes in - especially as the official methodology calls for a short prebath. But yesterday was the first time I used a carbonate pre-bath. Honestly, removing the remjet at the end is not a big deal.

I don't know, and I doubt, that the prebath caused the speed loss, unless it washed away chemicals in the film that enhance speed. But developing without the prebath (and without BZT and with extra 30secs dev) did seem to produce a much better negative with the Reala 500D. I'll do some scans tonight.

The pH meter will be interesting - my pH strips place the developer closer to pH 11 than 10. I may cut back on carbonate and do another test, when I have an accurate meter. For what it's worth, I was getting the green cast without using a carbonate prebath.