Color correction for Rollei Digibase CR200?

[spatz]

Well I finally got around to shooting a roll and having it processed. Unfortunately I was out of my regular E6 (provia 100f) one night and I blindly shot a roll using daylight balanced flash. The film was processed using dip and dunk in Sydney and I scanned the images without any colour correction or extraneous editing (mostly cropping and spotting). Scans were made using an epson 4990.



The grain is definitely present in this film and makes me wonder how Super 8 users will have to adjust to that. Grain aside I was surprised at how the film rendered certain colours, especially the punchy reds and muted blues. Skin tones I found to be very pleasing. The films latitude is also much better (to my eyes) compared to provia or velvia which I use more frequently. I have started shooting another roll of outdoor scenes only and I look forward to seeing how the film reacts to different colours in different light conditions (mostly noon daylight, afternoon golden light and overcast). I will post images once I finish the roll.

 

[Nzoomed]

Well I finally got around to shooting a roll and having it processed. Unfortunately I was out of my regular E6 (provia 100f) one night and I blindly shot a roll using daylight balanced flash. The film was processed using dip and dunk in Sydney and I scanned the images without any colour correction or extraneous editing (mostly cropping and spotting). Scans were made using an epson 4990.

View attachment 73324 View attachment 73323 View attachment 73325 View attachment 73326 View attachment 73327 View attachment 73328

The grain is definitely present in this film and makes me wonder how Super 8 users will have to adjust to that. Grain aside I was surprised at how the film rendered certain colours, especially the punchy reds and muted blues. Skin tones I found to be very pleasing. The films latitude is also much better (to my eyes) compared to provia or velvia which I use more frequently. I have started shooting another roll of outdoor scenes only and I look forward to seeing how the film reacts to different colours in different light conditions (mostly noon daylight, afternoon golden light and overcast). I will post images once I finish the roll.

i wouldnt say those shots are overly grainy at all, but mine seem to be somewhat grainy, but i do wonder if its partly due to poor scanning.
colours look great!

 

[wlodekmj]

THE PROBLEM IS WITH THE CASSETTES RATHER THAN WITH THE FILM

On 5 August I posted some batch numbers (well, emulsion numbers) and how yellow the film from them was, in post 151 of this thread.
I quote part of that below. I apologise, the second emulsion number should have been given as 67821602.

Like others here, I decided to try the Wittner film and compare it with the film sold by Maco. To avoid any effects from light-piping, I put the unopened film packages and camera bodies in a changing bag and so loaded each film in complete darkness. Just to compare, I also loaded a roll of Wittner film into a camera in subdued light.

The Wittner film gave very nice results. Not the same palette as Fujichrome, nor Ektachrome: well, as it should, it looked more like Agfachrome! No yellow cast at all.
What amazed me was that the Rollei CR 200 (emulsion 67821602) and the Crossibird (67821607) were nearly identical to it. No yellow cast at all on the Crossbird. Maybe a very slight yellow cast on the Rollei, possibly due to the film having been packaged some years earlier.

If just one roll had been unfogged, I would have thought maybe I was lucky with that one. But two, from different batches, both without a marked yellow fog when loaded in the dark, lead me to conclude that the yellow fog is due to light piping in cassettes that do not have the light trapping felt tightly closed, or have poor quality felt. This was one suggestion I made in my previous post.

The Wittner film loaded into a camera in subdued light showed absolutely no yellow fog either. Better felt, or a tighter closure of the cassette, I assume.

I now think that the problem is that the machine closing the 35mm cassettes into which Maco was loading cut-down Aviphot was, for a time, not closing tightly enough at the felt light trap. Even under subdued light some light could enter along the film leader poking out, and was piped down the film for a long way.

Rather than throw away any remaining rolls of Rollei Digibase 200, of Rollei Crossbird 200 and of Lomography XPro 200, it is best to keep the films in their original packaging and to load them into your camera in complete darkness. When the film is finished, wind it completely back into the cassette, so there is no leader left out of the cassette, then put the cassette in a black film holder, not a transparent one, until it is processed.

This problem will not affect 120 film, since there is no film leader. Unfortunately, no 120 Digibase CR 200 film is available from Maco just now, but apparently more will be available soon.

Many thanks to everyone, a summary of my earlier post follows.

If it helps, here are some batch numbers and what I found with them.
67821601, sold as Rollei Digibase 200. Very strongly yellow at the beginning of the roll, still yellow at the end.
67821602, sold as Rollei Digibase 200. Noticeably yellow at the beginning, very mildly yellow at all at the end.
67821606, sold as Lomography XPro 200. Markedly yellow at the beginning, slightly yellow at the end.
67821607, sold as Rollei Crossbird. Markedly yellow at the beginning, very mildly yellow at the end.

A few more comments:
The film is definitely not planned to be yellow to correct for the blue tint possibly produced in aerial photography.
The yellow is nothing to do with poor processing.
The yellow cast is not due to bad storage of master rolls, as it varies from strong at the beginning of 35mm rolls, to less at the end of rolls. It could to be due to:
Bad practice in spooling individual rolls of 35mm film, leading to some, or a lot, of light piping down the roll.
Poor quality light trapping felt on the 35 mm film canisters. THIS, OR THE CASSETTE NOT CLOSED TIGHTLY, IS WHAT THE ABOVE REPORT SUGGESTS.
Storage in very bad conditions, leading to the film on the outside of the film canister getting a strong yellow fog, the film near the center of the canister being less affected.

 

[Roger Cole]

I think I would find loading any of my 35mm cameras in complete darkness impossible. Sometimes it's hard enough in room light.

Be that as it may, it sounds like the bulk rolls, if loaded carefully into good quality cartridges, might be immune to the problem. And that's interesting. If I get back into doing my own E6 and this stuff is still around I'll likely try that. 200 is also a very convenient speed for a slide film IMO, as the existing films, other than remaining stock of Provia 400X, top out at 100 and I often just find that too darned slow as I wind up in deep shade or the like.

 

[AgX]

Refering to post # 200

-) at the factory films are typically loaded into the plastic canisters/cans in light

Which means that opening those cans in darkness would typically not be beneficial.


-) light piping (if that should be the cause) has nothing to do with the velour sealing of the cassettes

Which means that with a film that suffers from light piping the best velour seal would be of no effect.

 

[destroya]

well, i did a kinda experiment. I had roll i rolled from my 100 foot bulk roll that was unshotd for about 3 months. just forgot about it. it was stored in a fuji white film canister and sat on my film shelf for that time. the first 6 or so shots clearly had light piping, the next 4 had slight signs and the rest of the roll was fine. While I can't speak for pre-rolled film I think what has already been mentioned, the film base, is the cause of the problem. it clearly "pipes" light to the film and does its magic that way. I rolled another roll to act as a control group. I rolled it in a changing bag and loaded the camera in the bag as well to make sure all is dark. then developed the film that day. No issues on any frame.

So clearly if you have a bulk roll, if you pre-roll some store them in total darkness

 

[wblynch]

My Rube Goldberg mind just thought of taping a leader of traditional based film to the Aviphot to prevent 'light piping' during storage and loading.

No... don't laugh at me

 

[AgX]

I don't laugh!

That would work only to that extent that the film would not have got excessive exposure via that short leader during manufacture.
But a good and simple DIY approach nevertheless.



(A good use for all that Kodachrome around...)

 

[wlodekmj]

Alpenhause gives reasons to think that the yellow of Aviphot slit and packed by Maco in recent years was not caused by light piping.

I can only repeat what I wrote before. Two 35mm rolls of Aviphot from different batches spooled by Maco showed no yellow when I put them into (different) cameras inside a changing bag. Every other roll from these batches, which I put in the cameras in subdued light, showed a lot of yellow.

How can this be explained?
1/ I am not telling the truth. Either I made a mistake, or I am lying. I did not make a mistake, and why would I want to lie about this?
2/ This is a huge coincidence. After shooting 10 rolls from 4 different batches, with every roll being yellow, I randomly picked two further rolls from two of the same batches, and by pure coincidence neither was yellow.
3/ For some reason, Aviphot slit and spooled by Maco in recent years, when loaded into a camera in complete darkness, does not come out yellow. Otherwise it does come out yellow.

I think only 3/ is reasonable. If this is not caused by light piping, due to poor cassettes which allow some light into the cassette and which light then pipes down the film, there must be another reason related to the cassettes used by Maco. The cassettes used by Wittner do not allow yellowing when the film is loaded in subdued light.

I would be very happy to hear any other suggestions. Anyway, I am now happy to use film spooled by Maco when I have the chance to load the film into my cameras in complete darkness. Otherwise I shall use film spooled by Wittner.

 

[Truzi]

Seems reasonable to me. Technically speaking, though, you should probably load one more roll in your camera without using the changing bag.
Unfortunately, narrowing down the problem further can truly be a waste of the film. Otherwise, perhaps open the plastic film canister in a bag, find a way to protect the leader and velvet area, and expose the canister to light. Then back into the bag to load the camera. Repeat protecting leader and one end of the can, then leader and the other end.

 

[AgX]

Alpenhause gives reasons to think that the yellow of Aviphot slit and packed by Maco in recent years was not caused by light piping.

I can only repeat what I wrote before. Two 35mm rolls of Aviphot from different batches spooled by Maco showed no yellow when I put them into (different) cameras inside a changing bag. Every other roll from these batches, which I put in the cameras in subdued light, showed a lot of yellow.

How can this be explained?
1/ I am not telling the truth. Either I made a mistake, or I am lying. I did not make a mistake, and why would I want to lie about this?
2/ This is a huge coincidence. After shooting 10 rolls from 4 different batches, with every roll being yellow, I randomly picked two further rolls from two of the same batches, and by pure coincidence neither was yellow.
3/ For some reason, Aviphot slit and spooled by Maco in recent years, when loaded into a camera in complete darkness, does not come out yellow. Otherwise it does come out yellow.

I think only 3/ is reasonable. If this is not caused by light piping, due to poor cassettes which allow some light into the cassette and which light then pipes down the film, there must be another reason related to the cassettes used by Maco. The cassettes used by Wittner do not allow yellowing when the film is loaded in subdued light.

I would be very happy to hear any other suggestions. Anyway, I am now happy to use film spooled by Maco when I have the chance to load the film into my cameras in complete darkness. Otherwise I shall use film spooled by Wittner.

I know of samples from Maco conversions that did not come out yellow and definitely had not been loaded into the camera in complete darkness.
I do not see a relationship between the quality of the velour seal and light piping.
Nevertherless your experiences are puzzling.

 

[cl3mens]

Anyone have experience of it in 120 lately?

 

[wlodekmj]

Seems reasonable to me. Technically speaking, though, you should probably load one more roll in your camera without using the changing bag.
Unfortunately, narrowing down the problem further can truly be a waste of the film. Otherwise, perhaps open the plastic film canister in a bag, find a way to protect the leader and velvet area, and expose the canister to light. Then back into the bag to load the camera. Repeat protecting leader and one end of the can, then leader and the other end.

Thank you, this is an excellent suggestion and I shall try it. It will use a few more rolls, but I have already used 12 to reach this tentative conclusion, and it would be satisfying to see if a definite conclusion can be reached. I quite accept people's concerns that this might not be light piping nor something wrong with the cassetes, but until someone carries out such tests, we can not be sure. It could be that the yellowing in different batches has different causes - in some batches it could be old film, in others another problem, whether bad cassettes or something entirely different.

 

[Truzi]

The problem with trying to pinpoint the problem is that you will waste film in the process. If you are confident that loading in the changing bag will work, it may be better to stick to that unless the problem surfaces again. Experimentation would really quench curiosity, though, and perhaps give a definitive answer.

 

[Nzoomed]

ive proven this film is prone to light piping, i got it around the sprocket holes on my first roll i shot, interestingly, one frame had a spot of orange in the middle of the frame, yet it didnt near the edge. Anyway, those frames had no sign of yellowing what so ever.
My second roll was loaded in near darkness, so will post the results once processed

 

[wlodekmj]

Yellow is occuring? Sometimes?........But are we talking mega nasty Puke yellow such as what I experienced with Maco/Rollei pcked film or just the little bit of yellow that is sometimes seen characteristic of Agfa slide films?

I think we are all talking about a really strong yellow cast. It looks somewhat like daylight film used under tungsten lighting, or photos shot on daylight film in daylight but through a deep yellow or tobacco filter. When this yellow cast is not present, the Aviphot films from Maco or Wittner show just a little yellow, as you say.

I have this yellow on rolls that have fogged sprocket holes on their first few frames, but also on rolls that do not have any fogging along the sprocket holes.

The Maco website now has a strongly worded warning about the risk of light piping on polyester films.

 

[Roger Cole]

It would be great if the stuff was more trouble free. I'll miss Provia 400x a lot when it runs out and I can't buy more. But a 200 film is a great compromise. I've been shooting my remaining E100G and some Precisa-branded Provia 100 lately and it's often just too slow. Bright sunny day, walk into the wooded trails with my wife and dog - nope, 1/8th wide open on my 2.8 zoom. Another stop would be very welcome. (Ok, in that case it isn't really enough and I need at least two. Please Fuji, reconsider canceling Provia 400! /OT)

 

[Nzoomed]

I didnt know they stopped production of provia 400X!
I havnt even tried that film yet, i take it its more grainy than provia 100, but from what i understand its still very fine grain considering its such a high speed reversal film. Some people seem to like its contrast better than provia 100, which is interesting.

 

[Roger Cole]

I didnt know they stopped production of provia 400X!
I havnt even tried that film yet, i take it its more grainy than provia 100, but from what i understand its still very fine grain considering its such a high speed reversal film. Some people seem to like its contrast better than provia 100, which is interesting.

Unfortunately yes, it's canceled, but you can still find plenty of it. There are a couple of threads here about the cancelation, or at least one.

I bought 10 rolls right away and popped them in the freezer. I'm about to buy 10 more. I really like it. Yes, it's a bit grainy but not bad for a 400 slide film. And it's less contrasty than Provia 100 and just a great film for the speed.

All the E6 films I liked are gone - Astia, E100G/Elitechrome, and now Provia 400X. I can work with Provia 100 (just shot a roll of the rebranded Precisa version) but it's a bit too contrasty and a bit too slow for my tastes. I personally rarely need or want something like Velvia though it has legions of fans. I think I'll pick up a few rolls for fall colors though.

 

[spatz]

Im the process of shooting a roll of wittner 200 rated at 400. Ill have the lab push it 1 stop and ill post some examples soon after that hopefully.

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Ucit]

and? how did the pushed images look?

 

[spatz]

Haven't finished the roll yet. Im a slow shooter...

 

[ME Super]

Got my first roll of the Wittner Chrome 200D 35mm back from the lab today. This film isn't yellow at all, unlike the Rollei Digibase CR200. Even including shipping from Germany to the US, this film is not a bad price. Wittner Cinetec will be getting more of my business for this film. Shipping takes longer than from B&H, but that's expected since it has to come across the pond and then go through customs, then go via US mail instead of UPS.

Will probably project these tonight just to see how they look projected. Viewed directly they look nice and not at all puke yellow. Would love to see how they look pushed to 400.

 

[ME Super]

Well I projected them tonight. The Wittner Chrome 200D slides look nice, and not at all yellow like the Rollei Digibase CR200. Very neutral, and reminded me a lot of late 1980's Ektachrome.



The contrast of this scan isn't quite like the side. It seems to be a bit lower in contrast than the slide, not much but enough to be noticeable. The Wittner Chrome is a nice, lowish contrast film that seems to be good for general picture taking. There's some nice dynamic range in this next one, although very little deep black, but it wasn't in the scene anyway, other than possibly the ducks' eyes. You won't get the inky blacks that you can with Velvia, and in some cases that's a Good Thing.

 

[spatz]

I've dropped off the roll of Wittnerchrome that i exposed at 400ISO at the lab today. I should be able to post some scans by the end of this week and compare them against some shots taken on the same film that was dev'ed and exposed normally.. I'm quite interested to see how it will turn out. I think the grain might become a bit off-putting. The film is fresh from Wittner so i doubt there'll be any yellow cast. I wonder if there's any way of modifying the e6 developers to reduce grain?