Coldest Extreme Weather for an F with Sandard Prism?

snegron · Oct 7, 2014

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how much extreme cold weather an F can withstand? If, for example, I were thinking about traveling to Alaska during December/January to get shots of the northern lights and I were to take my F with standard meterless prism with me, how much cold can it withstand before freezing up or some other type of failure? I'm assuming the temps can probably reach -20 or so. Will my F freeze up?

p.s:

1. Will my manual focus AIS lenses be able to withstand the extreme cold weather?
2. Will my film be able to work under extreme conditions ? Will the emulsion work? Will the cold cause the actual film to become brittle?

summicron1 · Oct 8, 2014

How cold? Most good pro cameras can handle down to a bit below freezing, mechanically. If really really cold you want to have the camera serviced and lubed with cold-resistant lubricants. Batteries will stop producing juice.

The real problem isn't the camera, it's the film. The emulsion works fine. However, film breakage is a real problem. The stuff gets brittle, although you can usually load and wind OK. Condensation when you go indoors is a major threat.

Read this: http://www.nikon.com/about/feelnikon/recollections/r23_e/index.htm Note the trouble they went to to keep the film from breaking.

Leica, needless to say, gets all superior, but I bet this camera was also prepped with special lubes: http://leicarumors.com/2010/05/24/l...s-during-60-days-trek-on-the-north-pole.aspx/

wiltw · Oct 8, 2014

In the days of mechanical SLRs, folks who intended to use their gear in very cold extremes could have their cameras 'winterized' with lubricants that would remain fluid to lower temperatures than possible with factory lubricants. But what temperatures they could endure for what period of time I do not know.

summicron1 · Oct 8, 2014

APUGuser19 said:
Personally, if I had the money to take a trip from Florida to Alaska, I'd have the money to buy a Nikkormat, which is probably a more dependable overall camera.. I would certainly stay away from a Pentax. If you have to put on a coat, it's too cold for a Pentax. But come to think of it, I'd buy some of those chemical warmers the deer hunters use, and drop them in my camera bag.

when we had the olympics here in Utah in 2002 a lot of fotogs used those hand warmers with their gear. Most were shooting digital then, although my film Leicas handled the weather just fine.

Poisson Du Jour · Oct 8, 2014

Cold soak will eventually cause cameras to seize, but where you are going you'd have to leave them out there, unprotected in the minus-whatever temperatures for a few hours to all night. It's something that you'll only discover by observation and maybe experimentation. Leave the camera out all night and return to it in the morning. What do you find? My Pentax 67 has been out in minus 4 degrees but only for a couple of hours (I can't stand such temperature!). Maybe something to be concerned by though is embrittlement of film that is being pulled when wound on and could realistically break, or pawls (especially if plastic) in winding mechanisms breaking. Many, many potential problems. Lithium batteries will easily cope with the cold, but the practical things like film winding (especially if manual), condensation and the forementioned cold soak are more serious.

mauro35 · Oct 8, 2014

I have succesfully taken photos at temperatures down to -30 celsius. But the camera has not been outside for more than 30 min. or 1 hour max at a time. Before bringing it back to nomal room temp you could wrap it in a plastic bag (sealed), so the condensation will form on the outside of the bag.

darkosaric · Oct 8, 2014

I watched video about creation of Nikon F - and it was tested in deep freezer , I think it will be ok to use it on -20C. I used Leica M3 and Nikon F on cca -15C in Poland, no problem at all.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Oct 8, 2014

I had been put Zenit ET with Helios 58 in to minus 25 celcius freezer , it worked like new. I think at Jan , you will find minus 35 degrees at the warmest day at Alaska. I have 1911 issues of National Geographic and photographer has used a view camera all 1 year expedition.And nowhere to hide the camera but may be he put the lens in a warmer. I bet your nikon will fail to unrepairable at the first day at your trip.

Buy a M7 and sell it after trip , no lose but lots of excellent pictures

MartinCrabtree · Oct 8, 2014

Would you please post up your results if you go? I'd love a definitive answer to your question.

bdial · Oct 8, 2014

When I owned one, there were times it was subjected to temps around 0F, maybe somewhat colder.
As a guess, you are probably good down to -10 without special lubes, but you probably wouldn't want to give it a deep soak of those temps.

Neal · Oct 8, 2014

Dear Snegron,

Keep your camera dry. The only time I've ever had problems in the cold I was outside on a humid day (on the shores of a large mountain lake) when the temperature swiftly dropped to about 20°F late in the evening. The moisture ended up as ice causing the mirror to lock up on the foam (an old Yashica FX-2). I was able to continue taking photos by setting the focus distance by eye and guessing at composition. Otherwise, I have used cameras (mostly all mechanical but also a Contax RTS) around 0°F without problem.

Good luck,

Neal Wydra

summicron1 · Oct 8, 2014

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
I had been put Zenit ET with Helios 58 in to minus 25 celcius freezer , it worked like new. I think at Jan , you will find minus 35 degrees at the warmest day at Alaska. I have 1911 issues of National Geographic and photographer has used a view camera all 1 year expedition.And nowhere to hide the camera but may be he put the lens in a warmer. I bet your nikon will fail to unrepairable at the first day at your trip.

Buy a M7 and sell it after trip , no lose but lots of excellent pictures

there may be some truth to this -- a russian Zenit may be rude and crude, but it's built with loose tolerances and so would be less prone to suffering because cold shrinks the metal. Perhaps the lubricants in it also don't freeze up as readily.

Having said that, I suspect your Nikon F will be just fine. The advice about the m7, however, is not bad either. And whatever camera you end up using, put it in a plastic bag before coming indoors to avoid condensation (cold soak?).

Les Sarile · Oct 8, 2014

APUGuser19 said:
I would certainly stay away from a Pentax. If you have to put on a coat, it's too cold for a Pentax.

I am not sure how you come to this opinion? According to Pentax, the LX is good to -30 from the factory. The camera itself - in good working order, may not be the weakest link. You can also use Lithium gels.

Jim Jones · Oct 8, 2014

I worked at Thule Air Force Base in Northern Greenland for three years in the early 1970s. My Leica M2 and M4 and Nikon F all worked well in temperatures down to -60F. The equipment was new or nearly new. Lubrication in old equipment might have caused problems. To avoid this, some photographers have the lubrication removed from their cold weather kit. It can shorten the life of the camera, but early replacement of it is probably a fraction of the cost of most Arctic photography. The batteries required in newer cameras may be more of a problem than lubrication. Twenty-first century photographers can give better advice on this. Handling a camera in extreme cold can be difficult. I prefer thin insulated gloves under tethered mittens. Mittens are warmer than any gloves, and can be removed quickly when necessary.

Several problems in cold weather photography can be avoided with a little care. As noted previously, film becomes very brittle at low temperatures and humidity. Film must be advanced and rewound slowly to avoid breakage and static electricity. A photographer's breath can condense on viewfinders and lenses. Some photographers try to protect their equipment from the cold except when actually shooting. This may cause more problems than it cures except perhaps for battery dependent gear. When bringing a camera from the cold into relatively warm and humid environments, it should be protected from condensation while warming up.

adelorenzo · Oct 8, 2014

I've shot all kinds of cameras in temperatures down to -40 without any issue. I mean sure, if you left the camera out on the tripod all night it would freeze up but in normal use they should be fine. he biggest challenge is keeping yourself and your fingers warm. Pentax cameras work fine, I've shot everything from a K1000 to my 645NII. Lithium batteries are basically unaffected by cold, if your camera uses non-lithiums it might be an issue.

A local aurora photographer has shot film for years, up until very recently, mostly in cheap Russian 35mm cameras with various brands of 800 speed film.

Hazards of Aurora Photography by David Cartier, on Flickr

Les Sarile · Oct 8, 2014

adelorenzo said:
A local aurora photographer has shot film for years, up until very recently, mostly in cheap Russian 35mm cameras with various brands of 800 speed film.

I can only assume that Russian made cameras take cold into account . . .

John Koehrer · Oct 8, 2014

As said above breakage and static are relatively common. Advance and rewind should be slow to reduce the possibiiity.
RE: Cold & the F. I would wander the shores of lake Michigan mid-winter with no problems.

You could put your camera in a plastic bag in the freezer for a day or two just to check it out. The bag will prevent condensation on the camera when you take it out.

Les Sarile · Oct 8, 2014

In the March 1968 Popular Photography subjected the Nikon F testing to -4. However, the testing setup shows a lamp shining into the lens mount with a sensor behind the shutter. I am assuming that the incandescent lightbulb gets it much hotter than that. Does anyone know the published temperature range for the F?

The testing on the Olympus OM4ti subjects it to oven and freeze testing -> http://potsun.wordpress.com/2005/12/09/om4-tti-crash-test/

Again, in factory condition, the camera is not likely to be the weakest link provided the camera is used in an environment it is designed for.

vpwphoto · Oct 8, 2014

Apuguser19 nailed it. (NO need to say my F can do it and so on, none of us know if his F spent a couple decades in a drawer or basement.)

Unless you "know your equipment" and have had it a while... don't play with an antique camera for images you don't have the stomach to loose. I was doing some work 500 miles from home. I noticed the Hasselblad's series of sounds, one was "missing"... sure enough the main-spring for the shutter in my 50 had grown tired and snapped. You need to trust your ears and what you are used to hearing, keep them clean, and in order, look through them and fire off a frame or two when swapping film to ensure aperture and shutter are functioning, I don't do it all the time, but as my Swede Square system ages, and sits longer between use I do. I've said it before and will again... Leica has made the only camera to break my heart. I can't stomach 30+ year-old shutters in Leica gear (yes they were serviced by top shelf people).

Aja B · Oct 9, 2014

Nikon produced the F from '59 to '74. More than a few were subjected to -20 to -40F temps and the vast majority did just fine. Much is riding on the state of the lube in your camera. With the proper lube it'll serve well. Yeah, the film is more brittle - wind gently.

snegron · Oct 10, 2014

Thanks everyone. I tried researching the original specs of the F, but despite the fact that I have the original user's manual, I couldn't find any info regarding the operating/storage temperature.

Although I have several other bodies (F2A, F3HP, FM2N, F100), the only reason I was considering taking my F with standard prism was because it does not need any batteries for anything. It was to be a back up camera for a DSLR.

As far as film goes, I have read that if it is too cold the emulsion won't work. I know that whenever I store film in the fridge I have to let it thaw out before I use it. I don't know if I started doing this years ago to prolong the life of the film and to prevent condensation. Not sure how well film does in extreme cold weather.

snegron · Oct 10, 2014

APUGuser19 said:
Personally, if I had the money to take a trip from Florida to Alaska, I'd have the money to buy a Nikkormat, which is probably a more dependable overall camera.. I would certainly stay away from a Pentax. If you have to put on a coat, it's too cold for a Pentax. But come to think of it, I'd buy some of those chemical warmers the deer hunters use, and drop them in my camera bag.

A plane trip from Florida to Anchorage during that time of year is actually less expensive than from Florida to other popular, closer destinations. Even taking a one week cruise would cost me more money than to fly to Alaska that time of year.

The idea of taking the F is mostly as a back up camera to the DSLR's I plan on taking. I'm still doing research on those as well, however, I can always rent a pro body online if needed. Much cheaper than buying a new body just for this one week trip.

DREW WILEY · Oct 10, 2014

I know people who took them on multiple expeditions to the highest summits in the world without issues, where fancier cameras routinely failed. And no winterization. Heck, I simply bought my nephew a little Pentax MX for use in the arctic for months on end, then sub-zero temps in Patagonia and the Himalayas afterwards. The simpler the better, and it's nice to have something not battery-dependent. Today some of these expedition types have obviously gone digital or action-cams, so need to be conscious of a whole new set of headaches, but among the older crowd, the FM2n's and certain previous F models were considered no.1 for reliability. That's what I choose to shoot in 35mm. But my very first all-mechanical Honeywell Pentax went thru everything imaginable over hundred of trips in the mtns, until my favorite shutter speed finally wore out. Shirakawa used the same early Pentax on his famous Himalayan shoots, along with P67 gear. I'm skeptical how some of this new electronic stuff would hold up near a severe lightning storm. But you won't catch me with any auto-anything camera!

snegron · Oct 10, 2014

APUGuser19 said:
A DSLR? What dat is? Is that a double SLR that like, takes 2 different pictures at once?

It's the black, rectangular object behind my pretty F...

snegron · Oct 10, 2014

APUGuser19 said:
A DSLR? What dat is? Is that a double SLR that like, takes 2 different pictures at once?

...and this even bigger, black rectangle behind my other two pretty silver cameras.

p.s. The one in the middle is also a film camera...

Coldest Extreme Weather for an F with Sandard Prism?

snegron

summicron1

wiltw

summicron1

Poisson Du Jour

mauro35

darkosaric

Mustafa Umut Sarac

MartinCrabtree

bdial

Neal

summicron1

Les Sarile

Jim Jones

adelorenzo

Les Sarile

John Koehrer

Les Sarile

vpwphoto

Aja B

snegron

snegron

DREW WILEY

snegron

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