Cold Tone paper

[ronlamarsh]

I am looking for a good cold tone paper. iknow there are many out there but I am a cheapskate! I have used Bergger, Kentmere and Ilford....they are all good but when I can get Arista Edu ultra at close to half the price its tough to fork out the dough for the others. The problem is edu ultra is a chlorobromide emulsion(according to the data sheet) slightly warm. I have some snow images and others that cry out for a steely cold tone. Has anyone tried the Arista II? From what I can gather its kentmere.

 

[Andrew Moxom]

If you want cold tone paper, why not try the coldest currently available from ANY vendors today..... Slavich Unibrom graded papers are truly the coldest tone paper on the market today. It's great paper. Grade wise, they are little hard so the slavich G2 is more like a G3 and the Slavich G3 is more like a G4. That said, it prints wonderfully and tones well in selenium. It's dirt cheap too! Freestyle has it for around $14 per 25 sheets of 8x10

 

[Ian Grant]

You can control the cold tone by choice of developer to. Try adding Benzotriazole that will cool most developers.

Ian

 

[SamWeiss]

I've used both the Arista EDU and Arista II papers lately. As you pointed out, the EDU has a warm look to it, which serves some subjects well but not others. The paper has a creamy look to it also, compared to some other papers when set side by side. However, for most uses I think I prefer the Arista II (which is according to all lines of reasoning ... relabeled Kentmere), which I found easy to use.

OTOH, the II costs more than the EDU, and I just ordered a pkg of Oriental Seagull from B&H as they sell the Oriental for just a few dollars more than Freestyle does the Arista II, at least for 8x10" size. When you get to 11x14" size though the Arista II does save quite a bit of money.

 

[firecracker]

Oriental VCFBII (VC FB) and RPII (VC RC) are good for cold-tone effect. They are not entirely cold, but compared to other products, they are slightly colder to begin with. You might want to try...

 

[Anscojohn]

I like cold tones.Try using Ansco 103 (not a typo) cold tone paper developer first. It is heavy on metol. I modify it by halving the bromide in the stock and adding 1% benzotriazole to the working dilution as needed.

 

[ronlamarsh]

Cold tones

Will benzotriazole work with ethol LPD? Anybody got a formula for ANSO 103 I just looked in my darkroomn cookbook and it isn't in my edition. thanks All, I'll try the Slavich paper too

 

[tony lockerbie]

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I mostly use D72 (Dektol pretty much) and am wondering if I could sub the pot. bromide for benzotriazole to give cooler tones?
Thanks
Tony

 

[Anscojohn]

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I mostly use D72 (Dektol pretty much) and am wondering if I could sub the pot. bromide for benzotriazole to give cooler tones?
Thanks
Tony

******
Sure. But leave in some bromide. Don't leave it out completely.

 

[Anscojohn]

Will benzotriazole work with ethol LPD? Anybody got a formula for ANSO 103 I just looked in my darkroomn cookbook and it isn't in my edition. thanks All, I'll try the Slavich paper too

******
The photo chemical gurus can answer more authoritatively than a fiddler like myself. But LPD, AFAIK, uses phenidone, so probably has a lot of benzotriazole in it. Supposedly by changing the dilution of the stock, LPD changes tones. Closer to stock gives colder tones.
There is a thread in the Articles section above which gives the formula for Ansco 103.

 

[Ian Grant]

Agfa 103 and Dektol aren't that different at all so adding Benzotriazole works well. There are two versions of Agfa 103, Ansco Agfa reduced the amount of Sulphite in the developer from 57g to 45g between 1938 & 1941.

LPD is a proprietary developer and the formula isn't published. PQ developers are inherently warmer toned than their MQ equivalent which is why they include Benzotriazole to control the colour. However many current liquid PQ developers have been re-formulated and now contain Potassium Carbonate & Sodium or Potassium Hydroxide in place of the Sodium Carbonate in the published formula, this allows higher concentrations but also produces slightly warmer tones. Ilford used an undisclosed compound instead of Benzotriazole in their Cool tone developer. Adding Benzotriazole will produce colder tones but you may need to add quite significant amounts.

Ian

 

[ronlamarsh]

Cold tone

******
Sure. But leave in some bromide. Don't leave it out completely.

Why can't you leave it out? Just an honest question from one who doesn't know

 

[ronlamarsh]

Cold Tones

Just an update: I had been using LPD 2:1 which with Arista EDu ultra is quite warm. I found in Tim Rudmans book " master printers course" a reference to bleaching MGVI back then redeveloping in metol 10g, sodium sulfite 33g, sodium carbonate 33g. Boom! very neutral to cold tones and no loss of highlight detail, but a rather time consuming path. I'll try the ansco 103 as an easier route. Can it be mixed with just benzotriazole or does it really need the potassium bromide? I am rather uneducated in these matters.
Also why is warmtone paper i.e. ilford warmtone etc priced so much higher than their regular papers. I have used it and can honestly say that edu ultra with LPD 2:1 can do just as well. Just a question

 

[Anscojohn]

Why can't you leave it out? Just an honest question from one who doesn't know

******
The way it was explained to me, when the paper develops in the soup, it releases bromide as a by-product of the development process. After a few prints, the bromide begins to build up, making the prints warmer in tone. But leaving some bromide in seems to minimize that tendency. That's why I leave half the amount of bromide in the Ansco 103 when I mix it.

 

[Anscojohn]

Can it be mixed with just benzotriazole or does it really need the potassium bromide? I am rather uneducated in these matters.
******
I thought I would mention: 1: I am also very uneducated in these matters and have always relied on the advice of the old lab rats who were my early mentors. 2: I think I read some place that metol tends to produce cold tones. My intuition tells me that--all things being equal--a soup with more metol should produce colder tones. Ansco 103 contains 3.5 gms metol per liter, compared to D-72's 3.0 gms per liter. Also, Ansco 103 contains less bromide (which tends to warm the tones): 1.2 gms per liter compared to 1.9 in D-72.
I first hit on Ansco 103 back when I was printing with the original Oriental Seagull and original Zone VI papers and really liked the cold tone results rendered by the modification of less bromide and adding benzotriazole.

 

[Adrian Twiss]

Another possible way to go (albeit a bit more expensive) would be to use a gold toner to get that blue black look. Most warm tone papers are fairly receptive to gold toners.

 

[Anscojohn]

Just an update: I had been using LPD 2:1 which with Arista EDu ultra is quite warm. I found in Tim Rudmans book " master printers course" a reference to bleaching MGVI back then redeveloping in metol 10g, sodium sulfite 33g, sodium carbonate 33g. Boom! very neutral to cold tones and no loss of highlight detail, but a rather time consuming path. I'll try the ansco 103 as an easier route. Can it be mixed with just benzotriazole or does it really need the potassium bromide? I am rather uneducated in these matters.
Also why is warmtone paper i.e. ilford warmtone etc priced so much higher than their regular papers. I have used it and can honestly say that edu ultra with LPD 2:1 can do just as well. Just a question

*****
When you say two to one: does that mean you are using two parts stock LPD to one part of water? Most people do it the other way around.

 

[Matthew Gorringe]

I've found I can get blue blacks from EMAKS graded paper in Ansco 130 with the Bromide left out and BTAZ substituted (I had a bad batch of bromide that was ineffectual so had to use BTAZ because that's what I had on hand). When mixed 1:3 I use up to 25ml of BTAZ 1% solution per litre of working strength developer.

To cool the paper even further a 1:20 solution of KRST can be used for ~5min. I found this much too blue for my taste and have bleached my prints after toning to warm them up again, a very pleasant effect has resulted.

 

[jeff.blackwell]

If you can still find any Forte neutral tone FB paper, give it a shot. Its actually anything but neutral, but rather a nice coldtone, blueish in the highlights, with deep, rich blacks. Forte has been kaput for over a year, so any you find would have to be existing stock.

 

[apochromatic]

Have any of you folks tried the 'New' Tetenal VC FB paper? The old version, made by Agfa?, was warm with that hint of ivory base but the New one is really quite cold looking. I printed some back to back with Ilford MG FB and the Tetenal was distinctly colder in the base white and the image tone by comparison. I can't quite make my mind up over it but if you're looking for colder paper it might be worth a look. I ordered it direct through Tetenal UK.

 

[Andrew Moxom]

No one else has even mentioned Slavich Unibrom paper. All this smoke and mirrors to make a chlorobromide paper go from warm to cold toned is valid, but if time is a consideration as well as all the experimentation to go from warm to cold, then try Slavich Unibrom. It is a pure bromide based graded paper at 14.99 a pack from Freestyle and even cheaper for single weight. Cold tone right out the box, no questions asked. Get's even more pronounced cold tonality in selenium..... At the price, nothing else can touch it.

 

[apochromatic]

Haven't mentioned Slavich Unibrom because I thought he was a Canadian Ice-Hockey player. I will Google it immediately!!

 

[Andrew Moxom]

and what did you think about it?

 

[brianmquinn]

I second the opinion of Forte (neutral tone) paper.
I tried several paper / developer combinations and it was by far the best cold tone paper I found.
I stocked up but you can still find some on ebay.
The developer I use is home mixed GAF-125 (with the KBr left out).
#1) For COLD tone prints I add 3 ml of 1% BZ to 500ml of working strength developer (1:2).
#2) For NEUTRAL tone prints I add 3 m of 10% KBr to 500ml of working strength developer (1:2).
#3) For WARM tone prints I add 145 ml water and 22ml of 10% KBr to 500ml of working strength developer (1:2).

I get REALLY good NEUTRAL and COLD tones from this paper with the above set up.
I DO NOT get very warm tones however. But I get nice warm tones with this developer #3 with other warmer tone papers.

This way I have one stock paper developer and add KBr, BZ and water to get the desired effect.

 

[Adrian Twiss]

Forty Polygrade is a great cold tone paper. My only issue with it is that I found it not particularly long lived. I had paper go off after about 12 months and found there was distinct hightlight veiling. I should add that I don't have any chilling facilities. Maybe my storage conditions were not what they should be.