cold bw film does it really make that much of a difference ?

[removed account4]

it isn't hard to find photos and comments about film in the freezer or fridge
and how wrapping it in aluminum foil saran wrap, waxed paper, ziplock bags and in tupperware type containers
will preserve your film and paper &c.

has anyone actually compared film that is just constant temp shelf stored for 5-10 years with stuff that was in the cold?
i've read good and bad, seen freezer film that was terrible, and shelf film that looked new ...

what's your spin, and do you have proof?

 

[snapguy]

cool good, hot bad

It was 110 degrees here where I live the other day but when I lived along the Colorado River it would regularly get 125 degrees, plus, in the summertime. Not a good idea to leave your film in the car trunk when it is that hot. If it is too hot to touch the metal on your camera it is too dang hot for your film.

 

[removed account4]

thanks snapguy

yeah i know excessively hot is not good,
but i am talking on a shelf in your house in the basement ... or in a drawer ...
people go to such extremes and claim it makes such a huge difference ..
i'm just wondering if anyone can VERIFY the supposed difference ...

 

[snapguy]

scientific

So you're looking for a scientific test conducted over many years by a leading university or government entity? Most of the photographers I know (and I have worked professionally with hundreds over the years) go by what they see for themselves and what other trusted fellow photographers say. The higher degree of quality a photog wants out of his film and paper, the more careful he is about storing them in a cool, dry place. And they buy film when it is ripe, but not over-ripe. And they pick everybody's brain to see what works. Can you prove scientifically of course that leaving film and paper out where it is hot and himid makes absolutely no difference? Just wondering.

 

[markbarendt]

I've been wondering the same thing John.

With B&W film I can't remember even one issue caused by age or heat regardless of storage.

My work for the last 6 years has put me in -20f weather in the winter and 110f in summer. There's always film in the camera and camera bag on the front seat while I'm outside working. The windows are open when warm and closed when cold. The A/C or heater runs when I'm driving but not while I'm working. The ambient temperature in the cab swing by 100f (-20 to +80) 5-6 times a day in winter as I move from job to job or just get in to warm up. Summer swings run closer to 40 or 50f.

Even with color the only issues I've had where a problem became apparent was with some very old Vericolor. Developed some Portra from 2002 last weekend that I bought second hand earlier this year without any claim of refrigeration by the seller and it turned out just fine too.

 

[removed account4]

hi snapguy

not so much a multi year university grant science experiment, but personal experience, just as you are talking about.
just like mark has chimed in with ( thanks mark! )

it is well known that some films have a very bad shelf life, i got some cn400 given to me by a guy who
had a little mini lab in his dry cleaner ... it had expired a longitme ago and was on the counter
he said " you want it, take it" well needless to say no matter what i did it didn't record an image.
but i am saying regular middle of the road film ( color and b/w ) and paper.

people go through great lengths to hermetically seal their stash, and put it in the freezer because they
read somewhere or heard someone chatting about how deep freeze preserves film ( and paper )
but does it really ? when i was a kid growing up in the 70s it was common to find batteries ( d+c cells )
in the fridge now i don't think anyone bothers.

i wish back in 2001 i stuck some film in the cold so i could test side by side with stuff on my shelf
seeing i have shot expired shelf film with no fog at all, no loss of speed and like mark's film it seemed just fine.
( both color and b/w, both cn+e6 , and i regularly use almost 15 year old polymax rc paper that by all reports should have been
kept frozen or "it wouldn't work" ... )

im just wondering if it is all just an urban myth

 

[markbarendt]

I have some very old papers that do show fog, most of paper though younger than probably 10-15 years seems to be fine.

 

[pdeeh]

Do I recall reading that Ilford/Kodak/Fuji/whoever store master rolls frozen?
If true, then presumably freezing or cold storage has some benefit for long term, but for the average user who keeps film a few months or even a couple of years? Who knows ... well, probably PE does

 

[summicron1]

film aging/fogging is a chemical reaction and cold slows down chemical reactions. That's a general rule.

Different films react differently, of course, because they have different chemistry. I had a 100 foot roll of Ilford Pan F in the freezer for 35 years that I thawed and used and it was just fine. I had some film packs of Tri-X that were more like 40 years old, maybe more, and I was told had been frozen, but they had a base-fog.

So different films react differently, but as a general rule, keeping film cold will slow down any chemical reaction going on in it. I doubt anyone has done any more strenuous tests than that.

 

[Kawaiithulhu]

Even without special science numbers I find it safer to assume that it's better for any chemically sensitive item to be stored in a quiet environment away from wide swings in temperature and humidity. Just so happens that a ziploc baggie in the freezer is just that kind of environment.

The question then becomes not why, but why not? The cost is not onerous, the outcome more controlled, and I sleep better knowing that I've got a hundred pricey sheets of 4x5 that aren't baking in my uncooled apartment while I'm away all day working.

 

[randyB]

Think strawberries

Decades ago I learned to treat film as if it were fruit. I'll use strawberries as an example, #1. The very first of the season usually are not the most flavorful (translate this to super-fresh film straight from the manufacturer and most PRO films) #2. The best strawberries are the ones that are vine ripened and consumed ASAP after picking. (same with film, the best results will come when the film is used within the expiration date and processed immediately) #3. If you take that same basket of strawberries and set them on your kitchen counter for say 2 weeks they are not going to be very ediable. (film stored at room temp past the expiry date will start to show signs of deterioration slowly over the course of a few months--getting worse over years till it is useless). #4. Now, if you chill both the strawberries and the film both will last longer without much deterioration and if you freeze both they will last for a very long time.

PROOF: Why do you need proof, common sense should tell you that all of those posts about freezing/chilling are quite true. If you feel that you still need proof then do your own tests.

it isn't hard to find photos and comments about film in the freezer or fridge
and how wrapping it in aluminum foil saran wrap, waxed paper, ziplock bags and in tupperware type containers
will preserve your film and paper &c.

has anyone actually compared film that is just constant temp shelf stored for 5-10 years with stuff that was in the cold?
i've read good and bad, seen freezer film that was terrible, and shelf film that looked new ...

what's your spin, and do you have proof?

 

[removed account4]

hi randy

my only test is that i have been shooting shelf stored and / or expired film ( never refrigerated, never chilled, never frozen ) since 1981.
i have a lucite shoe box of film purchased in about 1991 ( both color and b/w ) and expose and process when i find time
.. and to be quite honest, none of it has never shown any problems. a couple of years ago i processed a roll of tmz from the 1990s
that was stored in the equivalent of "a sock drawer" for 20 years and processed it in sumatranol 130 ,, no base fog,
i also have been shooting about 4000 sheets of expired shelf stored tmx/tmy and tri x sheets, again, no problems.
rolls and rolls ( and rolls and rolls and rolls ) of 35mm + 120 film as well ... no problems.
film is not strawberries, but if that is how you like to think of it more power to you ! ..

yes, some film degrades faster than others (i'm not saying otherwise) but personally i think some of the whole
"put film in the freezer or fridge because it will go bad before you get a chance to use it"
goes kind of overboard, it is extreme .
if you think pro-grade film in the fridge is that much different than other film, it really isn't. i used to do side by side tests
and the negatives and chromes of my fuji consumer always looked the same as the stuff i paid 14$ a roll for .. in the fridge.
besides its not shipped from wherever in a cold car, it sits in a box in a hot truck.
i know of someone who used to deliver and pro film i used to buy - from the freezer -
it was revealed to me used to bake in the back of a van for hours ...

i was told by the manufacturer of my dishwasher that it was supposed to die 5 -7 years after i purchased it.
its been about 15 years with no problems. at a certain point i think manufacturers of "stuff" don't want to be liable
for things "going bad" so they give consumers an exp date, and tell them to perform herculean tasks to keep the "stuff" usable
i wouldn't be surprised if was all a joke ...

again, just what others' experiences might be ... ...
because as you can tell from my personal experience, it sounds like a bunch of hooie

 

[BrianShaw]

I've always assumed that the following is either based on data or based on highly educated engineering judgment (I could be wrong, though):

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/service/tib/tib5202.shtml

I have followed this guidance most of the time for the past 35 years and never been disappointed. But I wonder too, because some of the time I've left film in the back of a file cabinett drawer and never been disappointed either.

I'm not ready to call it "hooie" but also not ready to give it up either.

 

[markbarendt]

Even without special science numbers I find it safer to assume that it's better for any chemically sensitive item to be stored in a quiet environment away from wide swings in temperature and humidity. Just so happens that a ziploc baggie in the freezer is just that kind of environment.

I don't disagree, my main storage has been a mini fridge set to keep everything about 50f.

The question then becomes not why, but why not? The cost is not onerous, the outcome more controlled, and I sleep better knowing that I've got a hundred pricey sheets of 4x5 that aren't baking in my uncooled apartment while I'm away all day working.

The cost may not be onerous but it is real and spending money based on a myth is IMO a waste. I may not save big bucks or the world by myself by unplugging my mini fridge, but if a myth gets dispelled and a bunch of us unplug them ...

Another thought is that film, paper, and chemicals aren't that expensive compared to the rest of the costs in going shooting. Shooting more sheets/rolls to get better stock rotation is good for my creativity, skill building & skill maintenance, and for keeping Kodak, Ilford, and Fuji making film.

I'd rather put money toward more sheets of HP5 than toward my local electric company.

 

[markbarendt]

PROOF: Why do you need proof, common sense should tell you ...

Common sense isn't always right. In fact many things that I have viewed as "common sense" in my life have turned out to be nonsense or worse.

Here's an interesting video on being wrong. http://www.ted.com/talks/kathryn_schulz_on_being_wrong

It is good to question "common sense" and experiment with the alternatives and see what happens, as John has, as I have. Granted what John and I have done isn't necessarily scientific and our tolerance for change/differences may be greater than Kodak's or Ilford's but if it works...

 

[Steve Smith]

Now, if you chill both the strawberries and the film both will last longer without much deterioration and if you freeze both they will last for a very long time.

PROOF: Why do you need proof, common sense should tell you that all of those posts about freezing/chilling are quite true. If you feel that you still need proof then do your own tests.

However, if you freeze strawberries then thaw them, they will turn to mush!


Steve.

 

[miha]

I'm with John on this. On the 4x5 box of Kodak Ektar 100 there is a text that reads: Storage: 55F (13C) recommended but not required.
My fridge contains no film.

 

[Kawaiithulhu]

However, if you freeze strawberries then thaw them, they will turn to mush!
Steve.

This is the MO of every femme fatale and how they treat guys in film noir, ever :munch:

I'm just a better things to worry about, better safe than sorry kind of guy. I did some reading and the only references to film stock I find are notes on preserving exposed negatives from historical years and not keeping new film in top shape the longest.

Great discussion topic, I never really thought about it before.

 

[randyB]

strawberries and film

yes they do because they are a very perishable substance, mostly water. I never said that they would be just like fresh, but you DO have strawberries. Perhaps you miss my point, "chilling/freezing does extend the usefullness of a perishable product". Do you agree that film is a perishable product?

However, if you freeze strawberries then thaw them, they will turn to mush!


Steve.

 

[markbarendt]

yes they do because they are a very perishable substance, mostly water. I never said that they would be just like fresh, but you DO have strawberries. Perhaps you miss my point, "chilling/freezing does extend the usefullness of a perishable product". Do you agree that film is a perishable product?

I am not sure that I would call it a perishable product.

What I would say is that film is a product that changes characteristics very, very slowly over time. There isn't a specific, drop dead day that the film just stops working. The manufacturer of the film may determine that after four years, or whatever, the film will be "out of tolerance" but the film may actually be very usable for 10, or 40, or even 80 years with very minor adjustments to our shooting or processing.

 

[hdeyong]

It seems like the back six inches of the fridge is largely empty, because jars and packages are usually stuck back in closest to the front. I put my film in freezer bags and use up that empty space at the back. My film is in a cool, dry place, with almost no temperature variation, and the fridge is running anyway. And, every time I open the fridge, it reminds me to go out and take some pictures…..

 

[markbarendt]

It seems like the back six inches of the fridge is largely empty, because jars and packages are usually stuck back in closest to the front. I put my film in freezer bags and use up that empty space at the back. My film is in a cool, dry place, with almost no temperature variation, and the fridge is running anyway. And, every time I open the fridge, it reminds me to go out and take some pictures…..

Nothing wrong with that.

My mini fridge though holds only film.

 

[removed account4]

SNIP

And, every time I open the fridge, it reminds me to go out and take some pictures…..

now THIS sounds like the reason to keep film in the fridge ..
have breakfast ( remind to take photographs )
have a drink of cold water ( remind to take photographs )
lunch, snack, dinner &c ... ( see above )

constant reminder to make photographs i like that!

 

[randyB]

common sense

Common sense isn't always right. In fact many things that I have viewed as "common sense" in my life have turned out to be nonsense or worse.

Here's an interesting video on being wrong. http://www.ted.com/talks/kathryn_schulz_on_being_wrong

It is good to question "common sense" and experiment with the alternatives and see what happens, as John has, as I have. Granted what John and I have done isn't necessarily scientific and our tolerance for change/differences may be greater than Kodak's or Ilford's but if it works...

Perhaps what you experienced isn't actually "common sense". I always question everything that is told to me, and I DO mean everything, I compare what is told to me (it) against my life experiences of many many decades no matter how insignificant and minor "it" is. I compare "it" to what I know is true actual fact as I know it, of course everything is subject to updating as new facts are discovered. I have seen a severe drop in apparent "common sense" in many aspects of life since the coming of the digital age, it is as if people don't care to use their brains to actually think thur a problem. I don't think there is an app for common sense, is there?

 

[markbarendt]

Perhaps what you experienced isn't actually "common sense". I always question everything that is told to me, and I DO mean everything, I compare what is told to me (it) against my life experiences of many many decades no matter how insignificant and minor "it" is. I compare "it" to what I know is true actual fact as I know it, of course everything is subject to updating as new facts are discovered. I have seen a sevier drop in apparent "common sense" in many aspects of life since the coming of the digital age, it is as if people don't care to use their brains to actually think thur a problem. I don't think there is an app for common sense, is there?

I believe common sense is a misnomer, it's learned and cultural. Things that help one generation survive, that that whole generation may understand as common sense, may not work so well for their grand children. For example the computer and the internet have fundamentally altered the way my children make their livings and interact with the world and my dad just doesn't get it. My dad's common sense simply doesn't work in my kid's world.

Another example. Years back I went for training at Caterpillar's factory. The instructor told a story about how common sense changes. In the old days before turbo and supercharging were fully understood by the training staff and field people they (Cat) actually taught that there was a bump in the manifold pressure curve as the transition was made from negative to positive manifold pressure. This concept was based on the common sense of the time and taught to countless field mechanics and it is totally false, there is no bump. Much like a film curve the manifold pressure curve follows an essentially straight/smooth line through the entire working range of the engine. One day some punk kid showed up and asked why the bump was there? The instructor asked an engineer to explain it and they couldn't. The training program at Cat changed that day.

There are countless examples of common sense changing, think about all the oficial recommendations we have gotten for nutrition and medical care over the last 50 years.