Coffee? Is that true or a web-based fallacy?

[Kirks518]

I've tried E6 film reversal developed in FrankenC41 using I think print developer as first developer, and I've tried C41 reversal developed in FrankenC41 as well as a "proper" C41 kit.

Results, as they say, were variable.

I think E6 first developers by their nature are quite fast-working and high-contrast, which Caffenol isn't, so it'd be interesting to see what the results are if you try it.

The following shot was initially developed in Rodinal to render a black and white image; then a year later, when I'd learned a bit more chemistry and discovered about rehal/redevelop for C41, I used a simple ferricyanide/Kbr bleach and redeveloped the roll in some FrankenC41. Scans don't tell the whole story, of course, the colour image is a bit thin and grainy.



Original scan of the black and white negative:

So if I understand this correctly, a year after you developed a roll of film, you developed it again, and got color after you originally developed it as B&W (I realize it was color film)? That's amazing to me. I'm a real novice when it comes to self-processing, so to me, that's mind-boggling! :crazy:

 

[cliveh]

Coffee is a beverage and D76 is a developer.

 

[removed account4]

Coffee is a beverage and D76 is a developer.

clive

not sure if you would want to drink the coffee used for caffenol
it really isn't the best for drinking ...
and if you have the right ingredients caffenol is every bit as good as d76 ...
or i think it is ...

but .. to each their own ..

have fun with your elon, sulfite, borax mix !

john

 

[pdeeh]

So if I understand this correctly, a year after you developed a roll of film, you developed it again, and got color after you originally developed it as B&W (I realize it was color film)? That's amazing to me. I'm a real novice when it comes to self-processing, so to me, that's mind-boggling!

You have it exactly right.

It's not a new technique, in fact I think there's an old Kodak document about how to do it.

Developing and fixing C41 film in chemicals normally used for black and white doesn't destroy the dye couplers & whatnot that generate the colour when it is processed in a proper C41 process.

So long as you can first recover Silver halides from the silver image on the film (which is what the rehalogenating bleach I mentioned does), a colour developer can then be used to trigger dye production again.

The image is somewhat degraded, but as you can see is just about acceptable. Bear in mind that my example image wasn't redeveloped in a correct C41 process, so it might be possible to get better results.

I find it interesting in and of itself, but there is a practical application: From time to time people find unprocessed old colour film (usually requiring an obsolete colour process) and ask the best way to develop it. I've seen it suggested a few times on APUG that it is first developed in black and white chemicals to recover any images (and scan or print) that might be there, before trying any colour development.

 

[Zedwardson]

I am currently shopping around, but with the cost of C-41 development locally being at best expensive (if not a outright ripoff) I might have to start using B&W process on it.

 

[Kirks518]

You have it exactly right.

It's not a new technique, in fact I think there's an old Kodak document about how to do it.

Developing and fixing C41 film in chemicals normally used for black and white doesn't destroy the dye couplers & whatnot that generate the colour when it is processed in a proper C41 process.

So long as you can first recover Silver halides from the silver image on the film (which is what the rehalogenating bleach I mentioned does), a colour developer can then be used to trigger dye production again.

The image is somewhat degraded, but as you can see is just about acceptable. Bear in mind that my example image wasn't redeveloped in a correct C41 process, so it might be possible to get better results.

I find it interesting in and of itself, but there is a practical application: From time to time people find unprocessed old colour film (usually requiring an obsolete colour process) and ask the best way to develop it. I've seen it suggested a few times on APUG that it is first developed in black and white chemicals to recover any images (and scan or print) that might be there, before trying any colour development.

Ok, this response couldn't have been better timed. I just today was given a box of odds and ends, and there are a few exposed rolls of film in there along with some unexposed film. Unfortunately, I think the original owner rolled some of his own, as a number of the cartridges have no markings, just black canisters with a small piece of masking tape that says '36' (exposures I think is safe to assume). There is also at least one roll of color slide that was exposed. These have to date to the early '70's, as there are 3 unopened boxes with expiration dates of '74 and '75.

I really want to develop the exposed rolls for fun. So would it be recommended to develop them as I would B&W film? What would happen if I develop as B&W negatives, but they end up being color slide rolls? Is that what you would do?

 

[pdeeh]

If you're addressing the question to me Kirk, I'm not sure I feel qualified to answer. It might be worth posting a new thread as some of the people who might offer good answers won't be bothering to read a thread about Caffenol

For what my opinion is worth, I'd do some clip tests: load a couple of inches of the unknown films into a tank and develop as b&w. You might get some edge codes to tell you what you're got. Or I might just load whole rolls and stand develop them in Rodinal and devil take the hindmost

As for the slide film, you'll get b&w negatives from a b&w process. You might be able to extract colour from them again subsequently via the rehal route, but they'll still be negatives and I bet the colours will be way off.

 

[ME Super]

As for the slide film, you'll get b&w negatives from a b&w process. You might be able to extract colour from them again subsequently via the rehal route, but they'll still be negatives and I bet the colours will be way off.

This makes a lot of sense because of the way reversal film works. With reversal film, you use nearly 100% of the silver in the film. The silver that was exposed by the camera gives you a negative image, which is why the first developer in any reversal process is a B&W developer. It then goes through a reversal process (this is sometimes combined with the color developer step) which fogs the remaining silver. It's then put through a color developer step to give a positive color image. At this point the film is completely black as all the silver has been developed. At this point it's put through a rehalogenating bleach and a fix.

If you put it through a standard B&W process, meaning that you fix the film after first development, you have no hope of getting a positive image, because you removed the silver that would have formed the positive image by fixing it. You could, however, put it through a rehalogenating bleach, then through the remaining part of an E6 process (beginning with the reversal bath or reversal/color developer step) and end up with an E6 negative.

Warning: E6 was released in 1976, I believe. The older E4 process was ran at a lower temperature, so you might ruin the film if you run it through at a standard E6 temperature. E4 ran at 30*C (85*F).

Clip tests in B&W chemistry may be in order for the unlabeled films.

 

[StoneNYC]

I think, my only interest in coffee developers, are in the household kind that you don't need any kind of store-bought developer for, and only just as a knowledgebase in case "the end of the world happens" and I am stuck in some Third World country I need to produce an image for some reason in a desperate manner and only have orange juice and coffee at my disposal... I think it's great that so many people enjoy it, but I think its biggest use is in the sustainability of developers going forward into the future.

So until that time comes when I can no longer buy regular developer, I'll be happy to use all the regular stuff that's available and learn coffee "just in case"

Of course by that time film itself probably will have stopped being made, and I'll have to learn to cut my own anyway, so I guess the next step is learning to cook your own emotion on a baking sheet using Bisquick, salt, and agave nectar...

 

[Zedwardson]

Well Stone, one thing that makes me think about using Coffee developers is that it costing me close to 10 dollars a roll to get my C41 films processed. (Even at a minilab). The idea of combining inexpensive C41 film with a inexpensive developer does have its charms on my pocketbook.

 

[StoneNYC]

Well Stone, one thing that makes me think about using Coffee developers is that it costing me close to 10 dollars a roll to get my C41 films processed. (Even at a minilab). The idea of combining inexpensive C41 film with a inexpensive developer does have its charms on my pocketbook.

Coffee doesn't do color....

Only B&W ...

For $13 you can buy Rodinal, which will develop 500 rolls for that $13 dollars...

Even cheaper than coffee

 

[Zedwardson]

Yes, this is true. This is why I have a bottle of Rodinal arriving from freestyle soon.

 

[removed account4]

Coffee doesn't do color....

Only B&W ...

For $13 you can buy Rodinal, which will develop 500 rolls for that $13 dollars...

Even cheaper than coffee

coffee costs me a penny a roll/ sheet/ print
it has lasted hundreds of sheets,rolls,prints in 3l / 5/6 months ...
it is one of the least expensive developers out there
and if you look at some of the work being produces by it
it is able to rival some of the more well known developers out there
( d76, rodinal included ) .. it is easy to mock things not much is known about them .. lol


i have heard lots of 8-10 users say " caffenol c ... i'll only use a real developer"
which i find to be sort of funny ...