Cocked or Uncocked?

[Philippe-Georges]

So, this goes for LF lens shutters too…

 

[benjiboy]

I always make sure my camera shutters are fired before I put the cameras away, because keeping metal springs in tension for long periods can't be good for them.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I have two MF camera systems, RB67 and Hasselblad 501CM. Should these cameras be stored with the shutter cocked and the mirror in the down position, or shutter uncocked and mirror up?

always with the shutter cocked as per Hasselblad's recommendation. I'm doing o for 40 years without ill effects.

 

[Philippe-Georges]

always with the shutter cocked as per Hasselblad's recommendation. I'm doing o for 40 years without ill effects.

The same here!

 

[BrianShaw]

Me, also, except when the camera gets stored for prolonged periods

Leaving them cocked is intuitive based on the design as an important way to avoid dismount/mount jams and re-cocking problems. Ensuring that body and lens are cocked before dismounting or mounting lenses is actually discussed in the Hasselblad user documentation.

Deco king as much as practicable for long-term storage is equally intuitive.

… but where is the Hasselblad-written documentation that actually makes the recommendation to store with the camera/lens cocked and that it is safe to do so?

Odess wrote it, as do other anonymous internet people, which is fine yet PE reported just the opposite being stated by a Hasselblad source. I may be mistaken but I seen to recall another well-regarded Hasselblad historian also stating that they should be store uncocked.

I could not find it in any user manual that was written by Hasselblad to instruct users on how to use the Hasselblad camera. Nor in The Hasselblad Manual, which is an acknowledged source of wisdom on the Hasselblad line.

Can anyone point to primary-source information (the actual statement in Hasselblad documetation) that definitively states the recommendation to store cocked?

 

[Philippe-Georges]

Me, also, except when the camera gets stored for prolonged periods

Leaving them cocked is intuitive based on the design as an important way to avoid dismount/mount jams and re-cocking problems. Ensuring that body and lens are cocked before dismounting or mounting lenses is actually discussed in the Hasselblad user documentation.

Deco king as much as practicable for long-term storage is equally intuitive.

… but where is the Hasselblad-written documentation that actually makes the recommendation to store with the camera/lens cocked and that it is safe to do so?

Odess wrote it, as do other anonymous internet people, which is fine yet PE reported just the opposite being stated by a Hasselblad source. I may be mistaken but I seen to recall another well-regarded Hasselblad historian also stating that they should be store uncocked.

I could not find it in any user manual that was written by Hasselblad to instruct users on how to use the Hasselblad camera. Nor in The Hasselblad Manual, which is an acknowledged source of wisdom on the Hasselblad line.

Can anyone point to primary-source information (the actual statement in Hasselblad documetation) that definitively states the recommendation to store cocked?

No, I can not point you to any written statement you are asking for!
But, the only thing I, personally, can confirm is that since 1981, when I bought my 500C/M and SWC/M, I ALWAYS kept the camera and all the lenses cocked and never had a problem, that's all I can do.

The same for the LF lenses in Copal shutters and this since 1991.

I agree that this isn't a scientific research nor a controlled and repeated experiment and certainly not a prove of what so ever, it's just a personal experience, that's all.

And it is only peer confirmed by Ralph Lambrecht...

As the French proverb says: "on n'est jamais mieux servi que par soi-même"...

 

[BrianShaw]

...

As the French proverb says: "on n'est jamais mieux servi que par soi-même"...

You keep your LF shutters cocked; why? Their natural state is un-cocked until being used!

Copal, in their size 0 and 1 shutter "instructions" (that many of us never got when we bought a lens already mounted in shutter) is silent on the topic of storage... supporting your French proverb.

I did find a definitiive manufacturer statement on this topic in Graflex's Pacemaker Graphic Instruction and User Manual. Pacemaker Graphics used several different leaf shutters as well as a focal plane shutter:

And the same regarding the focal plane shutter in their Pacemaker Crown and Speed Graphic Guidebook:

 

[Philippe-Georges]

You keep your LF shutters cocked; why? Their natural state is un-cocked until being used!

Copal, in their size 0 and 1 shutter "instructions" (that many of us never got when we bought a lens already mounted in shutter) is silent on the topic of storage... supporting your French proverb.

I did find a definitiive manufacturer statement on this topic in Graflex's Pacemaker Graphic Instruction and User Manual. Pacemaker Graphics used several different leaf shutters as well as a focal plane shutter:

View attachment 346585

And the same regarding the focal plane shutter in their Pacemaker Crown and Speed Graphic Guidebook:

View attachment 346587

Well, when the LF central leaf shutter is in open position, I consider it as somewhat cocked, and I caught myself repeatedly to have left it that way for a rather long time, and apparently without any harm at all. Even fully cocked, they didn't suffer...
That's something I used to forget to check in the heat of the fight, when I switch lenses on the go (Linhof), and coming home late at night and have to process the film immediately for delivery the next morning.

Anyway, this is professional gear, and it is meant to be hauled around, withstand 'intensive' use in unfriendly environments, and, sometimes, typical unintended abuse (but loved)...
Hasselblad at least, cocked or uncocked!

And I think, but not sure, that the Prontor-Press shutters are always in a kind of a ready-to-fire position (=cocked?).

BTW, I wonder if the Graflex uses an US made Wollensak (leaf-) shutter, which might considerably differ from the German Synchro-Compur and Prontor shutters as used in the Hasselblad or the Japanese Seiko and/or Copal ones in the Mamiya and Fuji?

Oh, I never ever oiled a shutter!

 

[BrianShaw]

... Oh, I never ever oiled a shutter!

LOL... don't get me started on that topic! Internet "wisdom" that keeps getting repeated over and over again is that many shutters were intended to be run dry (without lubricants) because of statements like this in USER manuals, without regard for the easily proven fact that the SERVICE/REPAIR manuals specify a robust lubrication plan. So often it is written on the internet to "RTFM" yet some folks can't seem to read the manual themselves, or read the correct manual before offering "authoritative" advise.

PLEASE, don't get me started on that topic... I get easily annoyed by internet blow-hards who just keep repeating stuff they cannot support with authoritative sources. These two specific debates have been going on for decades in the same vane, over and over again. Generally, the "expert" cuts and runs rather than supporting their point, only to pop up again later repeating the same "wisdom".

I'm not familiar with Prontor-Press and always thought that they were like a double-action pistol - cocks and releases upon pulling the release. I assume that on how my antique Kodak TBI shutter and an Alphax shutter recovered from a Ciroflex TLR works; I could be wrong, though.

The bottom line, which you suggest, is that these options are minor details compared to other factors that are more likley to cause equipment damage. "on n'est jamais mieux servi que par soi-même"

 

[SodaAnt]

Wow! I didn’t know this subject was so controversial.

Maybe I’ll go over to the darkroom forum and ask whether D-76 or HC-110 is better…

 

[BrianShaw]

Wow! I didn’t know this subject was so controversial.

Maybe I’ll go over to the darkroom forum and ask whether D-76 or HC-110 is better…

... and while you are there, don't forget to ask about pre-soaking film!

 

[Philippe-Georges]

... and while you are there, don't forget to ask about pre-soaking film!

Perhaps a water stop bath?

 

[Sirius Glass]

Me, also, except when the camera gets stored for prolonged periods

Leaving them cocked is intuitive based on the design as an important way to avoid dismount/mount jams and re-cocking problems. Ensuring that body and lens are cocked before dismounting or mounting lenses is actually discussed in the Hasselblad user documentation.

Deco king as much as practicable for long-term storage is equally intuitive.

… but where is the Hasselblad-written documentation that actually makes the recommendation to store with the camera/lens cocked and that it is safe to do so?

Odess wrote it, as do other anonymous internet people, which is fine yet PE reported just the opposite being stated by a Hasselblad source. I may be mistaken but I seen to recall another well-regarded Hasselblad historian also stating that they should be store uncocked.

I could not find it in any user manual that was written by Hasselblad to instruct users on how to use the Hasselblad camera. Nor in The Hasselblad Manual, which is an acknowledged source of wisdom on the Hasselblad line.

Can anyone point to primary-source information (the actual statement in Hasselblad documetation) that definitively states the recommendation to store cocked?

But if you follow the advice of Mike at Samys Camera on Fairfax, you do not leave your lenses for prolonged periods because you are firing each lens for 10 to15 times at 1 second every three months.

 

[Ian David]

Hasselblad would never have explicitly advised to leave lenses uncocked for storage. The system must be cocked to remove lenses, and the process of uncocking separated lenses and then later recocking them before mounting on the body carries a degree of risk. Primarily the risk of camera jams and damage to the mating mechanism when people forget and accidentally try to mount uncocked lenses.

The springs in modern Hasselblads are undoubtedly more resilient than WW2 rifle springs, and the main spring in a Hasselblad lens is tensioned nowhere near its limits. Cycling of the spring through tension and release (ie camera use) will do more damage long term than leaving the spring under constant moderate tension. Anecdotal evidence, as well as Odess’s Hasselblad service advice, suggest that leaving the V system always cocked is not a significant concern in the broader scheme of things. That’s been my practice for the last 20 years and I plan to stick with it.

 

[BrianShaw]

Hasselblad would never have explicitly advised to leave lenses uncocked for storage. The system must be cocked to remove lenses, and the process of uncocking separated lenses and then later recocking them before mounting on the body carries a degree of risk. Primarily the risk of camera jams and damage to the mating mechanism when people forget and accidentally try to mount uncocked lenses.

The springs in modern Hasselblads are undoubtedly more resilient than WW2 rifle springs, and the main spring in a Hasselblad lens is tensioned nowhere near its limits. Cycling of the spring through tension and release (ie camera use) will do more damage long term than leaving the spring under constant moderate tension. Anecdotal evidence, as well as Odess’s Hasselblad service advice, suggest that leaving the V system always cocked is not a significant concern in the broader scheme of things. That’s been my practice for the last 20 years and I plan to stick with it.

Yes, a very astute post on all points. Another thing that we seem to know is that Hasselblad either would never, or did never, explicitly advise to keep lenses cocked for storage…

Extractor spring seem to fail more than firing pin spring; why was that?

 

[Sirius Glass]

Hasselblad would never have explicitly advised to leave lenses uncocked for storage. The system must be cocked to remove lenses, and the process of uncocking separated lenses and then later recocking them before mounting on the body carries a degree of risk. Primarily the risk of camera jams and damage to the mating mechanism when people forget and accidentally try to mount uncocked lenses.

The springs in modern Hasselblads are undoubtedly more resilient than WW2 rifle springs, and the main spring in a Hasselblad lens is tensioned nowhere near its limits. Cycling of the spring through tension and release (ie camera use) will do more damage long term than leaving the spring under constant moderate tension. Anecdotal evidence, as well as Odess’s Hasselblad service advice, suggest that leaving the V system always cocked is not a significant concern in the broader scheme of things. That’s been my practice for the last 20 years and I plan to stick with it.

That is a great summation. Thank you.

 

[Philippe-Georges]

Hasselblad would never have explicitly advised to leave lenses uncocked for storage. The system must be cocked to remove lenses, and the process of uncocking separated lenses and then later recocking them before mounting on the body carries a degree of risk. Primarily the risk of camera jams and damage to the mating mechanism when people forget and accidentally try to mount uncocked lenses.

The springs in modern Hasselblads are undoubtedly more resilient than WW2 rifle springs, and the main spring in a Hasselblad lens is tensioned nowhere near its limits. Cycling of the spring through tension and release (ie camera use) will do more damage long term than leaving the spring under constant moderate tension. Anecdotal evidence, as well as Odess’s Hasselblad service advice, suggest that leaving the V system always cocked is not a significant concern in the broader scheme of things. That’s been my practice for the last 20 years and I plan to stick with it.

That what I do since 1981, and thank you for confirming!

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Hasselblad would never have explicitly advised to leave lenses uncocked for storage. The system must be cocked to remove lenses, and the process of uncocking separated lenses and then later recocking them before mounting on the body carries a degree of risk. Primarily the risk of camera jams and damage to the mating mechanism when people forget and accidentally try to mount uncocked lenses.

The springs in modern Hasselblads are undoubtedly more resilient than WW2 rifle springs, and the main spring in a Hasselblad lens is tensioned nowhere near its limits. Cycling of the spring through tension and release (ie camera use) will do more damage long term than leaving the spring under constant moderate tension. Anecdotal evidence, as well as Odess’s Hasselblad service advice, suggest that leaving the V system always cocked is not a significant concern in the broader scheme of things. That’s been my practice for the last 20 years and I plan to stick with it.

Mamiya RB67 requires lenses be cocked to remove from camera. But the Mamiya recommends that the lens be uncocked out of the camera if being left for awhile.

 

[BrianShaw]

Wow! I didn’t know this subject was so controversial.

So now that your question has been answered with at least 3 options, how are you going to store your Hasselblad?

 

[xya]

But if you follow the advice of Mike at Samys Camera on Fairfax, you do not leave your lenses for prolonged periods because you are firing each lens for 10 to15 times at 1 second every three months.

If I did that for all of my cameras and lenses it would consume a large part of my free time. Imagine: getting the box from the shelf, taking the camera out of its box, open the case, regarding it to remember how it works, put it on 1s, tension the shutter, fire and tension 15 times, then pack it away again, let's say it's about 5 minutes all in all. That makes 12 per hour if you are quick. 5 days a week makes 60. With more than a hundred cameras and about 60 lenses in shutters that would be 3 weeks every 3 months...no, not me....

 

[MattKing]

If I did that for all of my cameras and lenses it would consume a large part of my free time. Imagine: getting the box from the shelf, taking the camera out of its box, open the case, regarding it to remember how it works, put it on 1s, tension the shutter, fire and tension 15 times, then pack it away again, let's say it's about 5 minutes all in all. That makes 12 per hour if you are quick. 5 days a week makes 60. With more than a hundred cameras and about 60 lenses in shutters that would be 3 weeks every 3 months...no, not me....

Perhaps it is the case that your problem isn't one related to having tired springs

 

[Sirius Glass]

If I did that for all of my cameras and lenses it would consume a large part of my free time. Imagine: getting the box from the shelf, taking the camera out of its box, open the case, regarding it to remember how it works, put it on 1s, tension the shutter, fire and tension 15 times, then pack it away again, let's say it's about 5 minutes all in all. That makes 12 per hour if you are quick. 5 days a week makes 60. With more than a hundred cameras and about 60 lenses in shutters that would be 3 weeks every 3 months...no, not me....

It does not take 5 minutes per lens. It takes me less than 1 minute per lens. Only lenses with shutters need to be exercised. You have a definite time management problem.

 

[SodaAnt]

So now that your question has been answered with at least 3 options, how are you going to store your Hasselblad?

Cocked.

 

[mshchem]

The camera was stored in a room with the humidity around 30%. I don’t think it’s mildew.

I looked at a bunch of eBay listings for the 501CM from Japanese sellers. In the majority of them, the auxiliary shutter looked just like mine. I suspect this is a common thing with these cameras.

Perhaps one of the Hasselblad experts on here can give an opinion.

Normal, please don't mess with the coatings. That's probably significantly better than most. Blads are wonderful, keep a CLA in the plan, use keeps them young.

 

[xya]

It does not take 5 minutes per lens. It takes me less than 1 minute per lens. Only lenses with shutters need to be exercised. You have a definite time management problem.

Wow! less than 1 minute! Cameras too? Not me. If I take a big box from my storage, some even with the help of a ladder, put the box on the floor, take off the lid, take out the small box that contains the camera, place it on my workplace, open the box, take out the camera, usually in its case, open the case, unfold the camera, look at it, set to 1s, cock and fire 15 times, then fold it gently, put it into its case, the case into the small box, bring it back to the big box...no way to do this in less than 1 minute...