Cocked or Uncocked?

BMbikerider · Aug 12, 2023

Philippe-Georges said:
Almost all the German (and by extension European) made photographic camera systems using springs are, at their cocked position, only burdened (is this the correct expression?) for +/- 80% of their capacity, and can be safely stored cocked (and some should be so).
This goes for Leitz-, Zeiss Ikon-, Voigtländer-, Linhof-, Hasselblad-, Compur- and Prontor- shutter systems, and alike.
Regardless it be focal- or central shutters.

Philippe-Georges said:
And yes, running mechanical shutters regularly is good (just like your muscles).

The famous camera repairman Will van Manen told me so.

I don't know about the Japan and USA made cameras/shutters.

I am not sure if you are, meaning leaving them cocked at 80% means that they are only at 80% stressed, but if you are, that is absolutely poppycock. Any stress caused by tension on metallic springs of any description (Ignoring those fitted to vehicles) will loose their tension and weaken off over a period of time, if left cocked when not in use. Just what is the problem with ensuring the shutter is fired before packing up the days photography? at worst you only waste one frame. Consider that, against having the camera serviced to restore the accuracy, what will that cost?

In the case of Leica, and similar shutter mechanisms with horizontally travelling blinds, leaving the shutter cocked will also place a strain on the shutter blinds as well. In the words of a Leica trained engineer in Wetzlar when I paid a visit some years ago, was one of the most common problems with focal plane shutters is caused buy not relieving the tension on the shutter mechanism

Cruelty and abuse of fine and somewhat delicate mechanical machinery should be a hanging offence.

BMbikerider · Aug 12, 2023

Pieter12 said:
The F3 can be equipped with a winder that will leave the shutter cocked. And most earlier cameras that came with or could be equipped with motor drives would be the same. On the other hand, my Leica M5 turns on the meter cell when advanced, so I always leave it uncocked.

But the F3 has an electronic shutter! It matters not, cocked or un-cocked

Pieter12 · Aug 12, 2023

BMbikerider said:
But the F3 has an electronic shutter! It matters not, cocked or un-cocked

Then why make a deal of "My Nikon F2a and FT3 both mechanical cameras are always left un cocked"? Or are you referring to the Nikkormat FT3?

Alan Edward Klein · Aug 12, 2023

Some of my Rb67 lenses have been unused but cocked for 15 years. Still OK.

BrianShaw · Aug 12, 2023

On the F3/MD-4 and FE/MD-11 it’s easy to manually release shutter with MD turned off for longer term storage.

Pieter12 · Aug 12, 2023

BrianShaw said:
On the F3/MD-4 and FE/MD-11 it’s easy to manually release shutter with MD turned off for longer term storage.

Since it has been pointed out that the F3 has an electronic shutter, should that make any difference?

Steven Lee · Aug 12, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
Hasselblad has published many times that their cameras and lenses have been designed to be stored in the cocked position.

This is true. But Hasselblad manuals were published at the time when a photographer was expected to periodically service his cameras and lenses. The master spring in Prontor shutters wasn't meant to last a lifetime. Odess (RIP) and Hasselblad NJ service center replaced them in lenses they serviced according to the service manual, I assume. I spoke to Odess about this, he says the springs have a finite service life and eventually they snap.

Fast forward to the present. I do not know whether spare shutter springs will be available in 2055 but I hope I'll be around. That is why I started to store my Hassy lenses uncocked, and bought their camera key tool.

neilt3 · Aug 12, 2023

BMbikerider said:
You did not mention the fact that one of your cameras was faulty which is what I based my answer on.

It didn't seem relevant to my response to the O.P .
I have four other Mamiya TLR bodies and I treat them all the same .
My other TLR bodies are also used in a similar fashion , Minolta , Rollei , Yashica , LOMO and an assortment of other random ones .
If it's loaded , it's ready to shoot as soon as the aperture and shutter speed is set . I don't leave cameras loaded long term .
If it's on the shelf out of use ( longer term as per the O.P's question ), the shutters not cocked .

BMbikerider said:
We cannot respond accurately if we do not have all the information!

It's the O.P seeking a response ! I was just stating what I do , I didn't feel the need to discuss it further so didn't feel the need to add more information .

BMbikerider said:
Do you not have the lens caps so should you 'inadvertently' release the shutter no damage would be done?

Yes , I do have lens caps for all my lenses .
However , if you read my original response to the O.P you'll note I said "The Mamiya TLR's are typically un-cocked , unless there's film in the camera " .
If the cameras not to be used for a while ( as per the O.P's question ) , it wouldn't have film in as I'd have finished the roll and developed it .

I tend not to have a film loaded in cameras I'm not using long term , just the ones that are in use .

BMbikerider said:
It is still bad practise to leave a spring tensioned. With my two Nikons they also get a regular firing of the shutters if they are not used for a month or so even when left uncocked.

My cameras that aren't in use tend to get their shutters exercised every once in a while , but to be honest I should do it more often .
They are left in their un-cocked state apart from electronic cameras who automatically wind on after firing the shutter .

snusmumriken · Aug 12, 2023

BMbikerider said:
Cruelty and abuse of fine and somewhat delicate mechanical machinery should be a hanging offence.

Hey-ho, I’m for hangin then, or deportation at least. I cosset my (two) cameras, but I wind on as soon as I have fired the shutter, and they sometimes sit unused for weeks at a time. I feel the repair bill will be a price worth paying, to avoid those situations when the shutter button pushes down on nothing and you’ve missed a shot. Perhaps if I only did landscapes I might feel differently.

BrianShaw · Aug 12, 2023

Pieter12 said:
Since it has been pointed out that the F3 has an electronic shutter, should that make any difference?

I really don’t know if it makes a difference or just makes me feel better. But I think even electronically controlled shutters include springs.

Pieter12 · Aug 12, 2023

BrianShaw said:
I really don’t know if it makes a difference or just makes me feel better. But I think even electronically controlled shutters include springs.

Not sure. Rollei Hy6 lenses don't mention any springs, although there could be some present: "the shutter and diaphragm in the lens are driven by two linear motors and controlled with maximum precision in 1/3 stop increments by the camera's microcomputer."

BMbikerider · Aug 12, 2023

Pieter12 said:
Then why make a deal of "My Nikon F2a and FT3 both mechanical cameras are always left un cocked"? Or are you referring to the Nikkormat FT3?

Both are left un-cocked after the last exposure has been made, The F2a is also an all mechanical shutter the same as the FT3 I thought you would know that.

BMbikerider · Aug 12, 2023

snusmumriken said:
Hey-ho, I’m for hangin then, or deportation at least. I cosset my (two) cameras, but I wind on as soon as I have fired the shutter, and they sometimes sit unused for weeks at a time. I feel the repair bill will be a price worth paying, to avoid those situations when the shutter button pushes down on nothing and you’ve missed a shot. Perhaps if I only did landscapes I might feel differently.

I have never had an occasion where the micro second it takes to wind a camera lever has affected any of my results. With the F2a and FT3, whilst they both have excellent horizontal running shutters, it takes far longer to get the camera set up on a tripod, then adjust or even only to check meter reading on an all manual camera, than it does to wind on the shutter. At my age I am not really in a desperate hurry to waste expensive film,

BMbikerider · Aug 12, 2023

BrianShaw said:
I really don’t know if it makes a difference or just makes me feel better. But I think even electronically controlled shutters include springs.

Since the early 1970's the Minolta SLR's (excluding the SRT mechanical cameras) Almost certainly starting with the XK/XM models, the XE1/XE7 and the plethora of other SLR's starting with the XG1/XG2 and onwards to the X700 all had electronic shutter which operated automatically, using magnets to trip the shutters. All powered by 2 x 1.5v silver oxide batteries or the equivalent.

Even Leica who had a marriage of convenience with Minolta when they started to make their range of SLR's (Not the early, all mechanical types.) But starting with the much improved copy of the Minolta XE1, the R3 then followed by the R4 R4s R5 so on and so forth with the exception of the R6 (?) all had Minolta derived (Seikosha) electronic shutters.

JerseyDoug · Aug 12, 2023

Automobile springs don't seem to suffer from being under load for a very long time.

MattKing · Aug 12, 2023

Whatever the right answer might be, I'm just impressed that no-one suggested going off half-cocked!

Sirius Glass · Aug 12, 2023

BMbikerider said:
I am not sure if you are, meaning leaving them cocked at 80% means that they are only at 80% stressed, but if you are, that is absolutely poppycock. Any stress caused by tension on metallic springs of any description (Ignoring those fitted to vehicles) will loose their tension and weaken off over a period of time, if left cocked when not in use. Just what is the problem with ensuring the shutter is fired before packing up the days photography? at worst you only waste one frame. Consider that, against having the camera serviced to restore the accuracy, what will that cost?

In the case of Leica, and similar shutter mechanisms with horizontally travelling blinds, leaving the shutter cocked will also place a strain on the shutter blinds as well. In the words of a Leica trained engineer in Wetzlar when I paid a visit some years ago, was one of the most common problems with focal plane shutters is caused buy not relieving the tension on the shutter mechanism

Cruelty and abuse of fine and somewhat delicate mechanical machinery should be a hanging offence.

The springs were designed to last a lifetime. Back in the day that there were the lens engineers still working and around to write articles and be interviewed, they stated that the springs were designed to spend decades in the cocked position regardless of how many times they were fired. I would trust their expertise over any layman's thoughts.

Sirius Glass · Aug 12, 2023

Alan Edward Klein said:
Some of my Rb67 lenses have been unused but cocked for 15 years. Still OK.

How do you know that they would not have been better off left in the cocked position. You have no information about that.

Sirius Glass · Aug 12, 2023

neilt3 said:
It didn't seem relevant to my response to the O.P .
I have four other Mamiya TLR bodies and I treat them all the same .
My other TLR bodies are also used in a similar fashion , Minolta , Rollei , Yashica , LOMO and an assortment of other random ones .
If it's loaded , it's ready to shoot as soon as the aperture and shutter speed is set . I don't leave cameras loaded long term .
If it's on the shelf out of use ( longer term as per the O.P's question ), the shutters not cocked .

It's the O.P seeking a response ! I was just stating what I do , I didn't feel the need to discuss it further so didn't feel the need to add more information .

Yes , I do have lens caps for all my lenses .
However , if you read my original response to the O.P you'll note I said "The Mamiya TLR's are typically un-cocked , unless there's film in the camera " .
If the cameras not to be used for a while ( as per the O.P's question ) , it wouldn't have film in as I'd have finished the roll and developed it .

I tend not to have a film loaded in cameras I'm not using long term , just the ones that are in use .

My cameras that aren't in use tend to get their shutters exercised every once in a while , but to be honest I should do it more often .
They are left in their un-cocked state apart from electronic cameras who automatically wind on after firing the shutter .

Notice that I have only been commenting on Hasselblad because that is the only one that I have documentation on this subject. I never commented on leaving Mamiya TLRs cocked.

Steven Lee · Aug 12, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
The springs were designed to last a lifetime.

Nope. Odess told me that the spring must be replaced every time a lens is serviced. I checked. The service manual says, quoting "It is recommended to change the drive spring 1 (Spare Part No. 102211-1515-000) doing repair works on the shutter unit. Please see repair instructions ”Exchange of drive spring 1”.

This fairy tale of "Hasselblad engineers saying [crazy claim]" has been regurgitated without any references to the source countless times. It doesn't make it true.

I recommend you stop spreading misinformation.

Philippe-Georges · Aug 13, 2023

BMbikerider said:
I am not sure if you are, meaning leaving them cocked at 80% means that they are only at 80% stressed, but if you are, that is absolutely poppycock. Any stress caused by tension on metallic springs of any description (Ignoring those fitted to vehicles) will loose their tension and weaken off over a period of time, if left cocked when not in use. Just what is the problem with ensuring the shutter is fired before packing up the days photography? at worst you only waste one frame. Consider that, against having the camera serviced to restore the accuracy, what will that cost?

In the case of Leica, and similar shutter mechanisms with horizontally travelling blinds, leaving the shutter cocked will also place a strain on the shutter blinds as well. In the words of a Leica trained engineer in Wetzlar when I paid a visit some years ago, was one of the most common problems with focal plane shutters is caused buy not relieving the tension on the shutter mechanism

Cruelty and abuse of fine and somewhat delicate mechanical machinery should be a hanging offence.

I was only repeating what the repair man said, and who am I, no camera mechanic at all, to know better.

But I can hardly imagine that the engineers, who designed these fine mechanic systems, just like watches, didn't take in account that in the most of the cases, the camera is just put aside cocked, eventually for a long time, and then occasionally fired.
I wonder, why designing a system that cease working after a certain period of being unused; the commercial effect would be devastating! Imagine Leica ore Nikon going under because of that.
I like to be confident (have to) in a camera for being trustworthy every time I take it at hand for photographing...

And of corse you are right, a camera is a valuable object for which care must be taken.

But, again, I am not a fine mechanic engineer, just a photographer for so many years (and guessing)...

BTW, what about automatic wrist watches, which have even finer mechanics than a shutter has; they are under permanent "stress" for at least half a man's life time (and winded up by each mouvement of the wrist)? Of course these too have the need for maintenance, but not very frequently (my Tissot only once in more than 20 years, and because it got accidentally submerged)...

PS: what do you mean by "poppycock", Google translates it rather funny?

BMbikerider · Aug 13, 2023

JerseyDoug said:
Automobile springs don't seem to suffer from being under load for a very long time.

Because they are far more robust and designed for the task in hand when a vehicle is moving they are flexing all the time and even these over time will weaken and on occasion snap. I had one of the front coil springs on my previous small Ford hatchback actually snap when the vehicle was parked. That sounded like a pistol shot

BMbikerider · Aug 13, 2023

Each to their own we all have opinions what works and what doesn't, but my findings are based on sound theory and any spring will change it's properties and capabilities over a period of time and being constantly under tension will not improve matters.

One of the other commands when |I was in the Army was when the weapons were not being used was to empty the chamber of any live cartridge and 'Ease Springs' this does prevent malfunctions and jams. It is basic field maintenance.
I have a feeling that most of these comments and suggestions that they have kept shutters cocked for countless periods of time is an excuse for argument for arguments sake.

Never the less, the fine springs used in mechanical shutters will weaken over time, hastened if kept permanently under tension, resulting the settings for the the speeds going off target. If they didn't there would be little need for camera repairers.

This to a large extent has been a meaning-less topic. It is hardly an arduous task to release a shutter and take the strain out of the mechanism, so what is the point of not doing so. It is plain common sense, sadly lacking by some!

BrianShaw · Aug 13, 2023

BMbikerider said:
Since the early 1970's the Minolta SLR's (excluding the SRT mechanical cameras) Almost certainly starting with the XK/XM models, the XE1/XE7 and the plethora of other SLR's starting with the XG1/XG2 and onwards to the X700 all had electronic shutter which operated automatically, using magnets to trip the shutters. All powered by 2 x 1.5v silver oxide batteries or the equivalent.

Even Leica who had a marriage of convenience with Minolta when they started to make their range of SLR's (Not the early, all mechanical types.) But starting with the much improved copy of the Minolta XE1, the R3 then followed by the R4 R4s R5 so on and so forth with the exception of the R6 (?) all had Minolta derived (Seikosha) electronic shutters.

It seems that you are describing how magnets are used to electrically control the timing of a shutter. On Nikon F3, F4, and F5 there definitely are springs that actually move the two curtains. Nikon shutter diagrams and repair manuals are clear on that point. I don’t use Minolta cameras so never had interest in how they work. But I’d bet that it is similar to how Nikons work.

For example, F4 (scroll down to the shutter diagram and parts list):

Vol. 11. History of the Nikon cameras and shutter mechanisms (Part II) | Camera Chronicle | Nikon Consumer

And F3, shutter diagram shows spring on right side:

Vol. 10. History of the Nikon cameras and shutter mechanisms (Part I) | Camera Chronicle | Nikon Consumer

BrianShaw · Aug 13, 2023

Pieter12 said:
Not sure. Rollei Hy6 lenses don't mention any springs, although there could be some present: "the shutter and diaphragm in the lens are driven by two linear motors and controlled with maximum precision in 1/3 stop increments by the camera's microcomputer."

Rollei was quite unique in that regard. The SLX had a direct drive shutter, a Rollei exclusive at that time. It wouldn't surprise me that the same is true in the Hy6.

Cocked or Uncocked?

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