Clearing pt/pd print

[Jorge]

Hi Jorge, I don't use #2 FO. I've read about the fogging. Maybe that's the problem. But somewhere it doesn't add up. My earlier test without water rinse in between developer & clearing bath as instructed by Clay, cleared effectively. Hm...

I hate to tell you this but this is the nature of the beast. There for a while I was getting this awful gray tone where the negative was masked, it would not clear and it was clearly fog, although I could never determine where it came from. Try with a single drop of #2 and see if it goes away.

 

[clay]

Fog will be gray colored - like a very faint highlight. Uncleared ferric will be yellowish brown. For what it's worth, I have never successfully cleared an insufficiently cleared print after it has been dried. I think it just probably got locked in the first time through your process. I would still dispense with the tap water rinse after development, and go with the long soak in the developer in lieu of the tap water step.. I suspect you may have a water pH issue similar to mine.

As an aside, the same pH issue also makes my gum prints get loads of dichromate staining. Kerik uses essentially the same process I do, but with a different tap water source, and he never gets dichromate staining. Cherchez l'eau.

 

[Kerik]

Again, it's probably related to our local water supplies. Because I have found old prints that had some yellowing in masked borders. I re-cleared them using citric followed by HCA and the yellow went away. Moral of the story: you gotta try it in your own shop before you can be sure things are working properly.

 

[eggshell]

Thank you all for your wonderful insight. It has been great learning from you guys. I have no doubt that Clay is correct about my water supply. Now I can move on to make new prints (without water rinse). I'll also do a fog test as Jorge suggested. Thanks to Kerik too. Good day everyone.

 

[cullah]

I use 25ml/L of a product named "Lime Away". It clears, in my experience, much better than citric acid and hypo clearing agent. Three baths of 4-5 min. interspaced with water washes.

 

[eggshell]

I use 25ml/L of a product named "Lime Away". It clears, in my experience, much better than citric acid and hypo clearing agent. Three baths of 4-5 min. interspaced with water washes.

I haven't been able to get Lime Away in my area. Thank you too for the recommendation. Appreciate it!

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

I'm slightly baffled by the whole Pt/Pd process because I keep hearing people talking about using some certain chemicals, but when I order a Pt/Pd kit from, for example, Bostick & Sullivan, it contains a very different list of chemicals. What's with that? I know I'm a relative newbie to the process, and I suppose that the learning curve may be easier with the B&S kit, but I'm still confused. If I want to do this right, what should I be getting instead of the kit?

 

[clay]

50ml Palladium #3 (sodium chloropalladate)
50ml Ferric oxalate #1
20ml sodium chloroplatinite (Na2 from B&S)
droppers for the bottles
2 liter potassium oxalate developer
1000g citric acid
250g oxalic acid
Kodak hypoclear
Paper: either COT 320, arches platine or Fabriano Extra White hot press for starters
Richeson 9010 3" wash brush
4 20ml glass bottles with droppers for diluting the Na2

That would be my recommended bare minimum starting kit.

I'm slightly baffled by the whole Pt/Pd process because I keep hearing people talking about using some certain chemicals, but when I order a Pt/Pd kit from, for example, Bostick & Sullivan, it contains a very different list of chemicals. What's with that? I know I'm a relative newbie to the process, and I suppose that the learning curve may be easier with the B&S kit, but I'm still confused. If I want to do this right, what should I be getting instead of the kit?

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Clay- thanks for the list. What do some of these things substitute for from the B&S kit? This is all very confusing. I've been getting functional results from the B&S kit, but I know much better can be had, and I'd like to get there. Their kit is the FeOx 1, FeOx 2, Pd 3, EDTA clearing bath and Citric acid developer.

I already have the COT 320, the dropper bottle lids, the Richeson 9010 brushes. I'm trying to find some of these chemicals on the B&S website but I can't seem to find some of them.

50ml Palladium #3 (sodium chloropalladate)
50ml Ferric oxalate #1
20ml sodium chloroplatinite (Na2 from B&S)
droppers for the bottles
2 liter potassium oxalate developer
1000g citric acid
250g oxalic acid
Kodak hypoclear
Paper: either COT 320, arches platine or Fabriano Extra White hot press for starters
Richeson 9010 3" wash brush
4 20ml glass bottles with droppers for diluting the Na2

That would be my recommended bare minimum starting kit.

 

[Kerik]

Clay- thanks for the list. What do some of these things substitute for from the B&S kit? This is all very confusing. I've been getting functional results from the B&S kit, but I know much better can be had, and I'd like to get there. Their kit is the FeOx 1, FeOx 2, Pd 3, EDTA clearing bath and Citric acid developer.

First, take the FeOx 2, go to the nearest window and throw it as far as you can. You should really investigate the use of Na2 in your sensitizer for contrast control, or adding dichromate to your developer. It would take too long to write out all of this in detail here. You may want to pick up the latest edition of Dick Arentz' book on pt/pd printing. Don't let all the sensitometry stuff intimidate you - just skip it for now (or forever), if you already have decent negs. EDTA by itself is not a great clearing agent. Citric acid and Kodak HCA (or Heico permawash) will work much better.

Hope that helps a bit...

 

[clay]

The FeOx 1 is ferric oxalate #1 - same stuff
FeOx 2 - don't bother
Pd 3 is Sodium palladium #3 - same stuff
EDTA - use with HCA
Probably it is not citric acid developer, but ammonium citrate developer
So buy some potassium oxalate developer and Na2 and you're ready to go

Bostick and Sullivan have everything but the Kodak HCA on their website

Clay- thanks for the list. What do some of these things substitute for from the B&S kit? This is all very confusing. I've been getting functional results from the B&S kit, but I know much better can be had, and I'd like to get there. Their kit is the FeOx 1, FeOx 2, Pd 3, EDTA clearing bath and Citric acid developer.

I already have the COT 320, the dropper bottle lids, the Richeson 9010 brushes. I'm trying to find some of these chemicals on the B&S website but I can't seem to find some of them.

 

[photomc]

Noticed that some Practitioners prefer postassium oxalate developer over ammonium citrate developer, what is the main difference between the two? Also, have any of you ever tried using the LiPd, for Ziatypes, in place of Palladium #3? Just curious, since I tend to have the LiPd on hand.

TIA, Mike

The FeOx 1 is ferric oxalate #1 - same stuff
FeOx 2 - don't bother
Pd 3 is Sodium palladium #3 - same stuff
EDTA - use with HCA
Probably it is not citric acid developer, but ammonium citrate developer
So buy some potassium oxalate developer and Na2 and you're ready to go

Bostick and Sullivan have everything but the Kodak HCA on their website

 

[clay]

Potassium oxalate is a warmer toned, lower contrast and IMO, smoother developer than ammonium citrate.

I use LiPd all the time for my develop-out palladium. It has a subtly different tone than the regular stuff, but behaves just the same, with the exception that it does not bronze as easily.

Noticed that some Practitioners prefer postassium oxalate developer over ammonium citrate developer, what is the main difference between the two? Also, have any of you ever tried using the LiPd, for Ziatypes, in place of Palladium #3? Just curious, since I tend to have the LiPd on hand.

TIA, Mike

 

[photomc]

Thank You, Clay.

 

[sanking]

Well, I actually prefer the more neutral tones of sodium citrate. Have not used ammonium citrate in years and don't remember how it works.

Sandy

Noticed that some Practitioners prefer postassium oxalate developer over ammonium citrate developer, what is the main difference between the two? Also, have any of you ever tried using the LiPd, for Ziatypes, in place of Palladium #3? Just curious, since I tend to have the LiPd on hand.

TIA, Mike

 

[scootermm]

I wanna second clays comment (although coming from a MORONIC newbie)
I started with Ammonium Citrate as my palladium/platinum developer and recently moved to pot oxalate....
hands down love it, in comparison. warm and creamy. strange descriptive but I do love it.

 

[photomc]

Thanks Sandy and Matt, guess I will be giving the DOP Pd process a try in the future. Already have some Ammonium Citrate (think that is what B&S is shipping with their Pd kits these days) and will get some postassium oxalate to compare the two. Seems like the nice things about these process is you can change one thing to get a different look if you want. That and it comes down to what you have on hand

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

How much Sodium Citrate should I get if I want to do up to 11x14" prints?

 

[sanking]

You would need about a liter of working solution, plus another liter for replenishment as you use up the working. A working solution needs to be about a 25% solution, so that is 250g of sodium citrate per liter.

BTW, some texts say that the dichromate control method only works with potassium oxalate, but I have found that it works just as well with sodium citrate.

Sodium citrate is less toxic than potassium oxalate, and also quite a bit less expensive ($7.80 versus $18.00 Artcraft), though you can reduce cost a lot by buying your chemicals in buyng in bulk. For example, at www.thechemistrystore.com the price of sodium citrate is less than $4.00 a pound.

Sandy

How much Sodium Citrate should I get if I want to do up to 11x14" prints?

 

[eggshell]

I'd like to revive this thread for a moment.

I bought some pH 1-11 paper strips to test the solutions. The phamacist said it isn't very accurate. But never mind, I'll try! Here's what I found out:-

Potassium Oxalate pH7
Citric acid 3
EDTA/Sulfite 9
Sulfite 7 1/2
Tape water 6
Distilled water(used to mix Pot.Oxalate) 6

I'm surprised to find the developer in alkalinity. I'm thinking perhaps it isn't the water rinse that retards the clearing process but the Pot. Oxalate. Any thoughts?

Thanks again.

 

[eggshell]

One more thing - EDTA stands for Ethylene Diamine Tetraacetic Acid. My test shows it's extremely alkaline (pH10). But it says ACID!

 

[Kerik]

I'm surprised to find the developer in alkalinity. I'm thinking perhaps it isn't the water rinse that retards the clearing process but the Pot. Oxalate. Any thoughts?

Thanks again.

I keep my P.O. developer around pH of 6 by adding small amounts of oxalic acid.

 

[eggshell]

Thanks Kerik. Guess I'll do the same.

 

[sanking]

I also do this with potassium oxalate developer. If you are using sodium citrate just add small amounts of citric acid for the same effect.

Sandy

I keep my P.O. developer around pH of 6 by adding small amounts of oxalic acid.

 

[Shinnya]

Hi,

Looks like I need to buy a pH meter for this use. I was wondering how accurate does it need to be? Could I use for checking aquarium/swimming pool?

Thanks for your input.

Warmly,
Tsuyoshi