Clearing kallitypes

[Rolleiflexible]

Has it ever occurred to anyone to clear kallitypes by putting them in a Jobo or Patterson tank with a citric acid solution, and sitting the tank on a roller base for 4-5 minutes? Any reason why this would not work? I'm about to print a lot of kallitypes and thought I might be able to automate the clearing while I expose and develop the next print. Ideas?

 

[MattKing]

A Cibachrome or similar print drum might be a better choice.

 

[grahamp]

It might be a chore to get the print in a Jobo drum inside the guide ribs. The wet print will stick. If you do it with the drum full of water it will align, but you would have to hold it in place and empty the drum and hope it stays in place. The print will need to match the drum in size if you don’t want it coming loose.

How many and how large will the prints be, and is there a maximum time in the clearing bath? Using the drum needs to give you a good net time gain.

A large print tray and a small pump might work as well. Depends how contaminated the bath will become.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I did a bunch of Kallitypes for a show once, and I stuck them 10 at a time, in a large citric acid clearing bath tray. Prints ranged in size from 8x10 to 11x14. I was doing it more for consistency, rather than efficiency. Same with fixing and toning... I was using mainly selenium. I wouldn't want to use a drum. Clearing time is only a minute. Faster with a tray.

 

[Rolleiflexible]

Clearing time is only a minute.

Everybody has different times. Sandy King says 2 minutes in each of two citric acid baths on the Unblinking Eye site, but 5 minutes in each on the Alternative Photography site. I gather Don Nelson's new kallitype book, just out, has a different scheme that requires EDTA, though he would not say why when asked in another thread here. (He also said that he had not printed kallitypes for over a decade, so YMMV.) FWIW I use citric acid because I find EDTA tends to wash out highlight detail, but I do use two citric acid baths and I clear them for maybe five minutes altogether.

I cannot say my process is right, or that yours is not. I find that a lot of people state their process as gospel but then cannot provide support for what they think is correct. I figure something like 5 minutes total in two citric baths is good enough. A minute seems short but I am not the one to say.

 

[Rolleiflexible]

If you're curious about Don's remarks, they are in posts #26 et seq. in this thread:

Kallitype's & Zone VI Fix?

1) Paper makes a difference - in Dmax and exposure scale. HPR was the finest of 44 papers tested for Dmax. 2) Developer choice results in subtle differences in color for a given paper. You will see a couple of composite image tests in the upcoming book (to be published by Routledge in August)...

www.photrio.com

Don says EDTA is essential to clearing kallitypes, saying: "Citric acid alone is insufficient to clear and can result in yellow staining and/or fading." But when pressed to explain, he did not reply. Because I have not found citric acid to fall short, and because I have had issues using EDTA, I just use citric acid.

Apologies for the digression, but it's my thread so I'm running with it.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Everybody has different times. Sandy King says 2 minutes in each of two citric acid baths on the Unblinking Eye site, but 5 minutes in each on the Alternative Photography site. I gather Don Nelson's new kallitype book, just out, has a different scheme that requires EDTA, though he would not say why when asked in another thread here. (He also said that he had not printed kallitypes for over a decade, so YMMV.) FWIW I use citric acid because I find EDTA tends to wash out highlight detail, but I do use two citric acid baths and I clear them for maybe five minutes altogether.

I cannot say my process is right, or that yours is not. I find that a lot of people state their process as gospel but then cannot provide support for what they think is correct. I figure something like 5 minutes total in two citric baths is good enough. A minute seems short but I am not the one to say.

Yup I know. That's my time.

 

[koraks]

But when pressed to explain, he did not reply.

Well, to be fair, to an extent he did:

Ferric yellowing of paper is most noticeable if you mask the areas outside the print area and is almost unnoticeable if you all brush marks on your prints. It seems to occur after long periods of time and isn't evident even weeks after drying a print -- it takes years. I have kallitypes made in 1992 that were cleared in just citric acid, showing noticeable yellowing in these areas. I switched to clearing Kallitype with first bath Disodium EDTA after attending a Dick Arentz NA2 Platinum/Palladium workshop in 1995. I see no long term yellowing in those prints in the masked areas around the image.

While he doesn't offer a chemical explanation, he does mention personal experience and notable differences in yellowing.

If I were to hazard a guess, EDTA is simply a better/more effective chelating agent than citric acid. Your highlight bleaching problem might relate to this effectiveness as well, and instead of avoiding it by relying on a less effective chelating agent, I'd consider recalibrating your process for a superior chelating agent. YMMV.

As to the issue of drums: I'd consider them a hassle for this purpose. Andy's tray method sounds much more practical to me.

Have fun printing; looking forward to yours!

 

[Rolleiflexible]

While he doesn't offer a chemical explanation, he does mention personal experience and notable differences in yellowing.

Yes but that is an incomplete summary. His "personal experience" is decades old. He says he does not print kallitypes now. He does not say which paper(s) he used, or how long he cleared them, or whether/how he agitated the clearing baths, or any of the other circumstances of his experience, when he references prints he made 30 years ago.

I am not saying his comments are unfounded. I AM saying that when pressed to give details, he went silent.

The writer claims sufficient expertise to publish a book on a process that he has not himself used for many years. One would hope that someone pubiishing a categorical statement like "Citric acid alone is insufficient to clear," might base it on something firmer than a 30-year-old anecdote. Especially when it contradicts the experience of his co-author, Sandy King, who has always specified citric acid as a clearing agent.

I respect the experiences of others. I would like more information to be able to put it into a context, so I can decide whether to alter my own processes. Ipse dixits aren't worth a whole lot.

 

[nmp]

That's why any recommendations we make, we should add a method by which the efficacy of the process in question can be tested. We all operate under a different set of conditions - paper, temperature, humidity, etc, etc (there are known known variables and then there are known unknown variables and worse still, there are unkown unknown variables - to paraphrase what a wise man once said) so there is no one size fit all that works for everyone. In this case, test for residual iron and if it comes negative for citric acid, even with one minute, then that's your process.

:Niranjan.

 

[Rolleiflexible]

Update:

IT WORKS!

I am using a JOBO Multitank 2551 on a Chromega roller base to clear kallitypes— the paper size is 8x8 and would easily fit an 8x10. Pour in 500ml of citric acid, flip the switch, and the print is clear 5-7 minutes later.

 

[koraks]

I respect the experiences of others. I would like more information to be able to put it into a context, so I can decide whether to alter my own processes. Ipse dixits aren't worth a whole lot.

Yeah, I know the feeling. It turns out that literally every alt. process you start to investigate is 'documented' in this way, with wholly or partially incomplete empirical data that's difficult or impossible to verify. I've come to take such recommendations, even by highly regarded and trusted 'authorities', as suggestions or possible areas for further investigation. Basically, I don't believe any of it unless I can prove (for myself at least) it's correct. Turns out that some of it is, some of it isn't, and a whole lot of it is sort of true under certain circumstances.

People like Sandy King have actually been incorporating this into their advice, by stating that they can only describe to a certain amount of detail what works for them, and that none of it should be taken as absolute gospel. as you may know I've been doing a lot of work on carbon transfer lately, and the one thing that's absolutely certain, is that no two practitioners worldwide work in exactly the same way. We all have our unique processes, materials and requirements. We take each other's recommendations, experiences and admonitions as suggestions or inspiration at best.

There's so many cautions and recommendations I've come across over the years that turned out to be bunk, not based in any theoretical reasoning, void of empirical evidence and/or totally unreproducible that I've stopped worrying about it. It's no use, and it's never going to change. If someone says "do A because otherwise the process will fail", to me it just means "A might be associated with some kind of print characteristic and it might be worthwhile doing some experimentation in that area". Nothing more.

 

[nmp]

Update:

IT WORKS!

I am using a JOBO Multitank 2551 on a Chromega roller base to clear kallitypes— the paper size is 8x8 and would easily fit an 8x10. Pour in 500ml of citric acid, flip the switch, and the print is clear 5-7 minutes later.

That's good to know. I had bought one of those Beseler print processing tubes and a roller base to be able to do 8x10 POP prints that I working on at the time. Never did try it. May be one of these days I will dust it off and try it out for salt prints and do the whole wet cycle in it which takes about 2 hours (mine anyway.) Most likely the times could be shortened as the agitation would be much more vigorous. One can also use less quantities at a time which would make it beneficial for pricey toning steps. on the other hand, there is a possibility of density loss due to physical attrition that some processes might be prone to.

:Niranjan.

 

[grahamp]

Update:

IT WORKS!

I am using a JOBO Multitank 2551 on a Chromega roller base to clear kallitypes— the paper size is 8x8 and would easily fit an 8x10. Pour in 500ml of citric acid, flip the switch, and the print is clear 5-7 minutes later.

Good - I always seemed to crease the paper trying to put a wet print back in a drum. Probably just me. I’m not the most dexterous. I can see the advantage of constant agitation for 5 minutes.

 

[Rolleiflexible]

Yeah, I know the feeling. It turns out that literally every alt. process you start to investigate is 'documented' in this way, with wholly or partially incomplete empirical data that's difficult or impossible to verify.

Most of the time, I just test and move on. Here, three things bring me up short:

First, the author claims to be enough of an expert on kallitypes to publish what is meant to be the leading authority on the process.

Second, ignoring his advice (use EDTA because citric acid does not work) risks years of work — it will take years before I can tell whether my kallitypes cleared with citric acid will self-destruct.

Third, the advice contradicts decades of accumulated experience — including the teachings of the book’s coauthor — that citric acid works as a clearing agent.

I guess the easy answer is that in fifty years I will be dead and no one will care.

 

[Rolleiflexible]

Good - I always seemed to crease the paper trying to put a wet print back in a drum. Probably just me. I’m not the most dexterous. I can see the advantage of constant agitation for 5 minutes.

I suspect the paper matters. I am printing on Revere Platinum, a heavier paper. It stays reasonably still throughout the process. If I were printing on single-weight Arches Platine or Crane Kid Finish, I am not sure it would work as well. The paper wants to adhere to the side of the drum, and that might be enough to hold weaker papers in place while the drum spins.

 

[Rolleiflexible]

Most likely the times could be shortened as the agitation would be much more vigorous.

I started out trying this out to speed up my printing for a print exchange. I figured I could clear one print while exposing and developing the next print. In practical terms, that means I am leaving the print in the rotary clearing bath (citric acid) for maybe 7-8 minutes. Using citric acid, the longer time in the rotary clearing bath does not appear to degrade the print. And perhaps the longer time in a more vigorous bath will improve the archival performance of citric acid as the clearing bath.

 

[nmp]

I started out trying this out to speed up my printing for a print exchange. I figured I could clear one print while exposing and developing the next print. In practical terms, that means I am leaving the print in the rotary clearing bath (citric acid) for maybe 7-8 minutes. Using citric acid, the longer time in the rotary clearing bath does not appear to degrade the print. And perhaps the longer time in a more vigorous bath will improve the archival performance of citric acid as the clearing bath.

Sounds like a good system...extra archival to boot....

:Niranjan.