Cleaning Jobo CPE-2

[Antje]

Hi all,

I'm the proud new owner of a used Jobo CPE-2. It works perfectly and came with a small zoo of tanks and reels. Wonderful. Now how can I hide that from the husband...

Well, back to my question: There's some residue on the bottom, of course, limescale and such, and it needs some cleaning. Any hints how to best do that? Can I detach the motor part of it? Can I take the heater out or something? I'm a bit reluctant to just put it in the sink and scrub it.

Thanks!

Antje

 

[juanito]

I'm a bit reluctant to just put it in the sink and scrub it.

Hi,

That is exactly what I do, gently and not so often.
I have never dismanteled it.
Mine have been with me for 18 years.

 

[Antje]

Thanks Juanito! OK then, the sink it is. How about citric acid, did you ever use that? It looks like the heating elements could use some of that. Guess that's safe, right?

 

[juanito]

Antje,

I just use hot water with some house cleaning soap.
Never tried citrtc acid or something harder. I do not care to much
if the waterbath is a little contaminated because the photo chemistry
is well protecetd in their bottles.

 

[Antje]

So, if anyone's facing the same - here's the result of some cleaning (good thing I'm at home with a very very bad sinusitis, house cleaning comes naturally with a storm outside): I used some citric acid and let it sit for two hours, then cleaned the rest gently with regular housecleaning soap. The grime, algae, and limestone is gone, and it even heats up more quickly now. No wonder, the limestone insulated the heater nicely I'd say.

Now I can finally make some contaminations of my own.

Antje

 

[Mick Fagan]

Antje, I would suggest that you look carefully at the heating element mounts.

These are the little (usually white) ceramic type thingys that the heating element actually sits in, as it does the loop around the base of the tank.

I have a couple of these units now and on my original one which I bought new around 20 + years ago, the adhesive holding these in place started to give up the ghost.

I used a small tube of waterproof stuff to ensure that those ceramic seats were fixed firmly.

Having looked at quite a few of the early CPE2 units I have noted that this is one point where quite a few seemed to need some preventative maintenance.

Congratulations, has your CPE2 had the Lift accessory?

Mick.

 

[Antje]

Mick, you mean they're not supposed to come off? Seriously, yes, they're not fixed at all anymore. I (honestly) thought that was a feature for better cleaning. I took them out and scrubbed them clean, too, and reinstalled them afterwards. I guess fixing them with glue is a good idea!

No, it doesn't have the lift. Beggars can't be choosers, right. I'm trying to convince myself I don't need one. Would be nice, though, as would be a small pump to help the water bath equalize. My dad has a ton of aquarium equipment, maybe he can lend me a small aquarium pump, that should do the trick...

Antje

 

[Mick Fagan]

Antje, unless you are in a real hurry, you don't need a water pump.

I've used my unit for most kinds of film and paper processes, with temperatures varying from 20ºC through to 37.7ºC and the accuracy of the thermostat, once you have worked out reasonably correct settings, is very good.

I have an electronic thermometer for my work which is able to measure to two decimal places, It is one that has been calibrated a few times over the years, it it tells me that both of my CPE2 units are accurate to within +- 0.2ºC for any given setting you place the temperature dial to.

Filling up with water around 8ºC and setting the temp to 20ºC, I find it will be quite close to 20ºC in about 15 minutes. Give it another 10 minutes and it is right there. For really repeatable E6 processing, I used to let the unit stabilise with all solutions aboard for about 60 minutes; beautifully consistent results!

At the rear, near the motor end, you should find a small clip (depending on actual build year) which will hold a thermometer. The small Ilford one sits in there perfectly and doesn't get in the road of tanks and hands. As it is so small, it doesn't get broken either

The CPE2 is designed to hold 600ml bottles, the larger 1,000ml bottles for the larger units or the tempering unit, don't work well in a cold environment if you are doing C41, E6 or RA4 processes which require high temperatures.

The E6 kit for the CPE2 is a different red bottle holder rack, which holds six 600ml bottles. The extra two 600ml bottles, are really worth having for holding the next run of fresh developer.

I would caution you to not overload your motor. Depending on build date, your CPE2 could have the original small motor or the later bigger (stronger) motor.

I have the small motor with both of my CPE2 units and have found by empirical methods (listening and seeing the motor labouring) that they work very well with tanks holding no more than 600ml of chemicals, just!

With 135 or 120 film I use either 4 reels or two reels (1500 system) for 4 rolls and 470ml (I use 500ml) This is the 1510 tank and the 1530 extension module together. This is really the best maximum load for the motor, in my opinion.

The 1520 tank and 1530 extension module takes 5, 135mm reels and 600ml of developer, hence the 600ml bottles.

I know that when in German photo shops in the late seventies and up to the mid eighties and buying Ilford B&W film chemicals, everything was 600ml. The Jobo CPE and CPE2 machines were, I believe the reason why. The rest of the world where I visited, I always found 1 litre, 2.5 litre and 5 litre film developing kits.

Do you have any 4x5 reels and/or tanks?

Mick.

 

[Antje]

Wow, thank you - that should save me quite some headache! Guess I'll have to learn to trust the processor. I let it run today and found that it indeed completely stabilizes after about half an hour (10°C water to 20°C, and infrequent checking ). The temperature dial seems to be dead on, judging from the two thermometers that have given me good results so far. That is encouraging. I'm letting it heat up to 38°C now.
I ordered new bottles yesterday and - what are they called in English, the translucent 260 ml things with scales? - because I haven't been able to clean them sufficiently, but given that the processor was such a bargain, that's totally OK. Those are 600ml bottles, I totally see the sense of not over-stressing the heater or the motor. And I won't do prints anyway, lacking a darkroom. I'll leave that to infrequent visit at my dad's and his trays.

Yes, I use the Jobo 2509n with reels, and that's probably all the motor has to cope with, ever. Actually, I've developed my first sheets rolling the tank by hand, but that's a major pain... This is so much easier! But what I bought it for is C-41. No-one around here does colour sheet film, and I'm anxious to try, really. Rollfilm is no problem at all, but I just cannot get sheets developed. I'll try this with a test roll first and see where it gets me. I love challenges, this is THE thing for winter!

Antje

 

[Mick Fagan]

Antje, there are various names for the 260ml graduates, which is I think the Jobo English brochure name.

I usually call them by another name, measuring beakers, which I think is reasonably like, or close to, messbecher. I didn't know that name, I just asked my wife, who is German.

I do a fair amount of 4x5 in the CPE2 and have found that I restrict myself to using the bottom of the 2830 40x50cm print drum. In another guise it is called a test drum (for paper) and in yet another guise it is the smallest 4x5 (and other) sheet film tank.

That tank takes 1 x 2509 reel, which will take 6 sheets. I do not have the 2509n reel, but the earlier reels without the little bits, which apparently hold film firmly in place. In the literature of the day, Jobo stated that although the reel is designed to take 6 sheets of film, 4 sheets maximum was best for perfect results.

I never tested this theory, preferring to just use the inner and outer slots to only develop 4 sheets at a time, until last year. I bought a Shen Hao 4x5 camera, it came with 4 lenses, I wished to test lenses and shutters, as well as become familiar with the camera. I needed to develop 24 sheets of film, preferably in lots of 6 as I had shot 6 sheets with each lens.

I decided to develop 6 sheets at a time as the processing quality of the film, was secondary to the qualifications I was putting each lens/shutter combination through. It was an interesting excercise in that three of the lenses/shutters passed all tests, whilst the fourth was a so, so.

The real surprise was evenness of developing issues, first time ever, processing 4x5 film. There was a definite demarcation line on a few of the sheets in each process run, where it was possible to see a density change (less) in certain sections of each affected sheet.

What was happening was that the sheets could, and did, shift slightly in the slots. When this happened, the ends made a smaller gap between sheets, thereby restricting flow of developer to the last 20 mm or so of the affected sheets.

I hadn't loaded 6 sheets to a reel before this and haven't loaded 6 sheets to a reel since. Now you obviously have the later 2509n reel(s) and I daresay that this could be a very big difference, maybe.

With C41, you will find it a doddle, once you get the mechanics correct.

Mick.

 

[bdial]

Mick,
What speed did you run the processor at? I found I had problems with uneveness at the slow speed, but somewhere I read they actually recommend the fast speed. So far, I've had good luck running it on the fast speed with 6 sheets in the small tank. Though I also use a little more developer than what Jobo specifies.

Also, I'm curious what glue you used to secure the ceramic clips?

Thanks,
Barry

 

[Antje]

I actually had to look up "doddle". Love learning new words! Beakers or graduates, yeah, that's it! Thanks.

Loading in a changing bag, I'm restricting myself to four sheets anyway - it's just too fiddly to get all six slots filled. Maybe the loader would help, but I don't really trust those tiny slots.

Oh, do tell you wife that she's missing out on this season's first snow storm. Yay. We're asked to not drive without a very good reason, not so much because of the snow, but because of the fallen trees. :rolleyes:

Antje

 

[Lee L]

I had unevenness with 35mm, rollfilm, and 4x5 in the early 80's in Germany running at the CPE2 slow speed recommended at that time. I used 2509 reels (before the 2509N came out) with 4x5 with 6 sheets. I quit using the unit for film because of this and a move to a place with a heated darkroom. A couple of years ago I tried a 35mm run with the later recommendations for high speed rotation and a pre-soak, and had good negatives. I haven't tried sheet film with only 4 loaded in the 2509 reel. A couple of years ago the 2509N was $30 in the US, now it's closer to $60. I'm using a combiplan, summitek cradle, or trays currently for sheets. I'll give the 2509 a shot with 4 sheets if I have some testing work where that seems suitable.

Thanks to Mick and Barry for the observations.

Lee

 

[Pupfish]

I've used limescale remover by Simple Green on both the red fiberglass tray and the plastic tub of my CPP-2 and it worked well on the scale. I also used a nylon bristle brush and got into the corners. It's probably a good idea to do this every so often so that your hands don't get contaminated by fixer or other chemistry that might be part of those maybe-not-just-hard-water-stains. Of course I take the motor/control/pump unit and Lift off before doing this.

 

[Antje]

I've used limescale remover by Simple Green on both the red fiberglass tray and the plastic tub of my CPP-2 and it worked well on the scale. I also used a nylon bristle brush and got into the corners. It's probably a good idea to do this every so often so that your hands don't get contaminated by fixer or other chemistry that might be part of those maybe-not-just-hard-water-stains. Of course I take the motor/control/pump unit and Lift off before doing this.

So, how do you take the stuff off? Do you have to loosen the screws on top of it...? :confused:

Thanks!

Antje

 

[domaz]

So you are saying the little white things that hold the heater in are critical? One of mine is broken off..should I worry? I am protecting myself with a circuit breaker on the unit.

 

[Pupfish]

Can't tell you for certain about models other than the CPP-2 but I'd expect they're all rather similar. The motor/control/heater/pump/Lift unit assembly removes with 4 gnurled nuts that are upside down and hidden from view when looking down on it. Later you'll do it easily by feel but you might want to turn the whole thing upside down at first. Also they may be tight enough to need a big slotted screwdriver the first time but these nuts need only to be finger tight when you reassemble it.

For the other screws holding the red fiberglass tray (6 or maybe 8 of them, from memory) you'll need a medium sized Phillips screwdriver. The clips that these screw into probably will remain in place by themselves (but might fall out if loose).

The little white thermal ceramic insulators inside the bottom of tub are to keep the heating element from contacting from the plastic and melting it. I glued a couple of mine back in place using 5-minute epoxy after roughing up the plastic, IIRC. Silicone caulk would probably have worked as well for the glueing-- come to think of it, silicone caulk is a pretty good insulator by itself, too. Though I'd use the high-heat automotive stuff made for engines were I thinking of substituting it entirely for a missing ceramic piece.

 

[Mick Fagan]

Antje, the film loader for sheet film onto the 2509 reels is really nice to use, compared to straight hand loading.

I mentioned the snow to the missus, she doesn't miss it, nice to look at, but cold to live with. We'll be in Germany at the end of December through to almost mid January, so I believe there is a reasonable chance of seeing the white cold stuff.

Barry, I always develop film, any type, on the slow speed setting, never use a pre-wash and never have processing problems. In fact today I developed 6 rolls of 35mm film I recently found whilst looking for a camera. Turns out the film was 1984 and covers the era from February to July. Ilford HP5 Safety Film, would you believe, been stored in it's bulk loaded cassettes and then inside a shoebox. Found a picture of myself taken in March 84, my hair was a different colour back then.

I've developed thousands of rolls in the CPE2 and apart form the aforementioned processing problem, I have never had any troubles with density evenness using the slow speed setting for all films. The later model CPE2 machines only have one speed, faster than the slow speed, but I believe slightly slower than the fast speed on my machine, 1 revolution per minute slower from memory.

The ceramic insulator thingys started to come adrift about 15 years ago, I haven't a clue what it was I used, but it worked and is white and waterproof

Lee, although I have heard anecdotal stuff regarding the slow speed for film and the fast speed for paper, I have never seen that written anywhere by Jobo. I have my original hand book and other stuff that came with my unit when new, they do not mention this at all.

My belief, and it is my belief only after some thinking about rotary processing and why would a smart Teutonic company put two speeds on their Color Process Entwicklung (CPE) machine. Entwicklung means to develop, (Antje, I did know that word).

After some time pondering this I came to the conclusion that as there were two drum diameter sizes, they required two speeds to maintain the edge speed. Virtually all films in the CPE2 are processed in the smaller 1500 drums, with paper generally processed in the larger 2800 drums.

Now that is a generalisation, but, by and large, when these smallest Jobo units were being sold new, the amateurs purchasing them, used them this way.

Professional users processing large amounts of film and sheet films, used the professional and much larger Color Process Professional (CPP) machines. The larger professional units have different speed settings for different sized drums.

My conclusion a couple of decades ago was that my two speed CPE2 was designed to run the small 1500 tanks at the slow speed and the 2800 tanks at the faster setting. This then gave me the same approximate external drum speed, meaning that the internal liquid covered the sensitive material at approximately the same rate, regardless of the drum diameter size.

Having said that, I still rotate on the slower speed for my sheet film in the larger 2800 drum with superb results.

For a few years in the eighties I developed Kodak 4x5 Color Print Film for a local professional photographer. Color Print film was a film designed to make colour corrected slides from C41 colour negative film, which in turn was then used for magazine or colour brochure printing.

I processed around 20 sheets a month and the only errors I had were either exposure (under the enlarger) or incorrect colour head settings in the enlarger.

Basically, I found that the slow speed setting worked for myself with film, so I haven't changed from that.

You really have to find something that works for you, then stick with it.

Mick.

 

[Lee L]

Mick,

Your take on drum diameter and speed relationships in the CPE2 sounds reasonable to me. My original instructions were the same as yours, but I had trouble with flow patterns on 35mm, 120, and 4x5 using Rodinal 1:100 and HC110 with several films at the slow speed. This was all with the 2521 drum, and 2501 and 2509 (not N) reels. With 35mm and roll film the flow around the 2501 radial reel spokes was clearly visible in film density variations, with increasing spacing to match the spoke spacing increase toward the perimeter of the reel.

I was in Germany (Wesseling and Bonn) for a year in '82 - '83 and was promised the use of a bathroom for film developing. After doing my first roll, I was banished to the unheated basement, and so forced to buy a CPE2 to get any processing done at all. After four months we moved to a place where I had a large heated bathroom to work, so I went back to stainless tanks.

Since I purchased in Germany and didn't register it with Jobo USA, I didn't get the newsletters they sent out. I found them online a couple of years ago, and the Jobo Quarterly had a couple of iterations of updated instructions, including a pre-soak, higher rotational speed, and a change in adjustments to make relative to recommended development times in small tanks. I'll see if I can track them down and post. I did try the new instructions a year or two ago, with Rodinal 1:100, and Pan-F+ substituting for the since-discontinued Panatomic-X that I used a lot in the 80's, and got even development.

BTW, Jobo USA were very helpful in supplying me with the parts necessary to convert mine from 220V to 110V when I came back to the US. I used it with very good results for color printing.

In any case, I'll give the 2509 reels a shot with only 4 sheets and the faster rotational speed when I get some testing time. I find setting up, cleaning up, ans stowing the Jobo to be more work than hand tanks with my current darkroom setup, since the Jobo doesn't have a dedicated counter space. So I don't get inspired to use it. For sheet film I'm currently using either a Summitek cradle or Combi-Plan T film holders with Combi-Plan and hard rubber Kodak tanks in a dip-and-dunk line, so I get 6 sheets at a go with those methods.

BTW, the single speed on the CPE2+ is about 75 RPM. On the CPE2, 1 is about 25 RPM and 2 is about 65 RPM, so the later model is always 15% faster than the fastest CPE2 speed.

Lee

Here is the later instruction set provided in the Jobo Quarterly 1994 #3: Dead Link Removed
Look down the page for "B&W Rotary Basics". Apparently I wasn't the only one suffering from problems with uneven density.

"Our experience shows that the rotation speed has little effect on either density or contrast. JOBO recommends a faster rotation speed, equal to about 75 RPM for most tanks, and about 50 RPM for the larger diameter 3000 series. This speed seems to give cleaner negatives, and less chance for undisturbed pockets of developer to contribute to bromide drag problems."

 

[Mick Fagan]

Lee, sounds very interesting. I've never used the 2501 radial reels, so I cannot comment.

Yes the amount of information that you have had at your fingertips, compared to us down here, is amazing. Until the advent of the net, we lived in an information black hole in this country.

I'm going to check out both of my CPE2 rotating speeds, I have a feeling they are slightly different to what you have supplied and what I read in the link you supplied.

Mick.

 

[Lee L]

Lee, sounds very interesting. I've never used the 2501 radial reels, so I cannot comment.

Yes the amount of information that you have had at your fingertips, compared to us down here, is amazing. Until the advent of the net, we lived in an information black hole in this country.

Mick.

The 2501 reels are a more "open" design, having a specialized loader, and lacking the spiral tracks. The rollfilm and 35mm film is caught at intervals in ridges in radial spokes with the 2501, not completely captive. It feels like the 2501 and 2509 reels I got were 'beta' stage developments.

Although I've had email and internet (such as it was) since 1983, I was in a black hole for information from Jobo myself, and didn't see the recommendations that were changed in about 1986 until about 2005. I never heard about the Jobo Quarterlies until then. Before that time, the only real use I got from the machine was for color prints in the 80's, at which it did a great job.

Lee

 

[Mick Fagan]

Well Antje with her new (to her) CPE2, certainly isn't living in an information black hole, my how times have changed.

Mick.

 

[Antje]

Nah, I'm so not... It's amazing. I even can't imagine going back to rummaging through libraries - when I went to university, we still had to organize paper runs to the central library in Cologne from Bochum. Once a month, someone would go for a day and copy publications. Hard to imagine today. I mean, isn't it grand: You want to try out argyrotypes? Just get the recipies off the net. Or simply order a kit from Freestyle. Looking for a focusing screen for your pre-war Rolleicord? Just watch Ebay. Don't know how to clean your Jobo? Ask and folks all over the world share their knowledge.

Thank you, everyone in this thread. I've developed my third batch of sheet film yesterday, it's evenly developed, nice tones, got the times right it seems, temperature is stable, no spills in my bathroom - I couldn't be happier. Or I could - if my C41 kit had already arrived!

Antje