Cleaning fixer container / preventing residue buildup

[dvornik]

I'm using Sprint Record Speed Fixer for film development (just because I'm used to it from school) and the bottle gets really dirty inside from some residue. I can't even clean it off. Is there a way to clean it? Or are there other fixers that don't get that dirty?

I recently started using Legacypro eco-pro stop bath (because of no smell) and was considering switching to their fixer. Would that make any difference?

Thanks.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

If the residue is sulfur from the bath going bad (sulfurization) then there is no easy way of cleaning it. Changing fixer formulation is not going to help unless the choice is to an alkaline fixer. Keep checking the bath and discard it as soon as it stats to turn cloudy. BTW fixing solutions are basically unstable and will go bad whether they are used or not. Switching to an alkaline fixer will help but many dislike the ammonia smell.

 

[dvornik]

Thank you. I believe it is the case - the fixer seemed to go bad for some reason. It did turn cloudy. It was kind of sudden.

I guess I'll have to pay more attention. I've never seen this happen before. I tested strips of blank film to see if the fixer was OK and it looked fine...

Smell is a big issue for me so I'll try to work with what I have. I came across some Kodak pdf that recommends using bleach when that happens in their machines.

 

[AgX]

Here is the manual:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/cis167/cis167.pdf

Beware of forming of toxic gases!

 

[Photo Engineer]

However the residue can be Sulfur itself and that takes strong alkali and Sodium Sulfite to remove and even so that is difficult.

I suggest an odorless (near neutral) fix. There are several on the market including TF-5 from the Formulary.

PE

 

[dvornik]

...that takes strong alkali and Sodium Sulfite to remove...
PE

Is it something I can get at a pharmacy? Clorox (that was suggested in the Kodak manual) didn't seem to do anything to it at all. The thing is i can't scrub it off because it's a bottle...

I am considering switching fixers and the reason I considered eco-pro is because I liked their stop bath. And I'm used to working with a stop bath.

 

[Tom1956]

Is this a special bottle? I have some special bottles too--I have my 4 Microdol bottles and my 2 remaining gallon cough-syrup pharmaceutical bottles I begged the Eckerds pharmacist for in 1973. The real thing--brown glass, the best. Any other bottle is just something I don't care about.
My point being, is it that important? Sodium Sulfiite can be bought in small bags on EBAY. Chlorox is clorox, or vice versa. Get a tube of BB's or some pebbles and get shaking. That's about all that will even begin to work. Or get rid of the bottle and get another one. All you want to do is keep shooting pictures. That's about all I want to do any more myself.

 

[dvornik]

I guess you have a point. It's just 5 bucks.

I'm kind of interested in maintaining everything in working order without rebuying stuff, though. And preventing this from happening again - I've never seen sulfurization before. I stopped re-using photoflo because it's so organic some crap actually manages to grow in it...

Shooting is the least time consuming part. Even for large format. Film processing and contact sheets take a while. I can't complain - I like doing it.

edit - I don't know why but i have a container of sodium sulfite from Formulary... What is it normally for?

 

[Tom1956]

Fixer will sulphurize, or sulphate, or whatever. Or, they'll get black. Mean stuff. The life cycle of a photochemical bottle is from base-to-acid, never reverse, obviously. When problems are evident, it it that bottle's turn to be used for nasty old developer storage for a year or 2. Move the next clear brown glass bottle into developer rotation.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Take a look here: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/fstop.html and pay attention to the section on storage life of the working solution.

Even though this is for an Ilford product (which I use and recommend), It applies generally to most similarly-formulated rapid fixers (i.e., slightly acidic)

Then, do your best to NOT store your fixer working solution longer than the recommendation for the container you are using (e.g., full, tightly-capped bottle, or half-full bottle, etc.). If you can do that and your storage conditions are good, you'll eliminate your sulfurization problem.

As for the bottle, I'd probably just toss it and start over and chalk up the $5 to tuition for HKU (Hard Knocks University).

FWIW, I try to only mix enough fixer working solution for the amount of film I'm developing at a particular time. If you're shooting roll film, you don't need to mix a liter, or 500ml even, just enough for the tank you are using. If you've saved up enough rolls for a batch of fixer, then you can just discard it after use, eliminating the entire storage scenario and the uncertainties that go along with it. If you do end up storing working solution, try to use a good bottle filled to the brim and tightly capped. This will give you the best storage life.

Finally, don't exceed the capacity of your fix. Use the throughput guidelines or, better, do a clip test before each batch. When the clearing time is 2x that in fresh fixer, discard your fix.

Best,

Doremus

 

[Photo Engineer]

Sodium Sulfite is the preservative used in both fixers and developers to prevent oxidation. This is the problem you are observing. The solution went bad and you have to reverse the reaction. Doing it is difficult and time consuming. Yeah, a handful of buckshot and hot water in the bottle might help a lot. I have a set of bottle brushes and they are very slow cleaners.

I prefer preventative measures. I check my solutions periodically and if there is any grunge it gets tossed.

PE

 

[dvornik]

Thanks Doremus. I think it's a wrong link - it's about the circle of confusion (nice name for a band). I've actually looked at it before when I was learning large format photography (which I still do).

But I really appreciate the rest of the advice.

I guess my issue is that i came from a school background where we supervised a darkroom. So we had to remix chemicals on a regular basis because of the volume and because students always screw up. We also had to follow the procedures and use only what's provided by the school. So I'm used to it after many years. When I lost access to that darkroom I had to build my own and I kind of assumed that at low usage the chemicals would last. My friend and I only develop 10-30 films a month, in batches. So now I gradually learn from my mistakes. Photoflo an the fixer don't last. I did clip tests, though, I'm not that ignorant. But that sulfurization thing caught me by surprise.

One other thing that's different when you have a darkroom in your loft is the smell issue that I've mentioned earlier. Sprint had switched to a vanilla-scented cat-piss colored stop bath several years ago and that thing can drive anyone suicidal.

Thanks again,

Serge.

 

[dvornik]

Thanks PE. Now that I know what to look out for I will really pay attention. I wasn't aware of it at all.

I'm also getting the idea that the main problem is oxygen, like with many other things in life.

Serge.

 

[dvornik]

Interestingly, 7 or 8 years ago i used to intern for a commercial manual-processing darkroom that manually develops film and prints fine art for galleries and art photographers.

One thing that surprised me is that they don't even discard the film developer, they replenish it. I guess at high volume it's a completely different approach.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Years ago when BW commercial processing was popular the fixing bath was in a sense replenished. Silver was removed by electrolysis and unwanted anions like chloride and bromide removed by precipitation. The bath was monitored to adjust the pH and other factors. LFA Mason in his book Photographic Processing Chemistry devotes a chapter on this.

 

[MattKing]

Interestingly, 7 or 8 years ago i used to intern for a commercial manual-processing darkroom that manually develops film and prints fine art for galleries and art photographers.

One thing that surprised me is that they don't even discard the film developer, they replenish it. I guess at high volume it's a completely different approach.

Even for moderate to small volumes, developer replenishment has a number of advantages. If you search on replenishment here on APUG, or read the data sheets for Kodak X-Tol or Kodak T-Max RS, you will learn more.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Thanks Doremus. I think it's a wrong link - it's about the circle of confusion (nice name for a band). I've actually looked at it before when I was learning large format photography (which I still do).

But I really appreciate the rest of the advice.

I guess my issue is that i came from a school background where we supervised a darkroom. So we had to remix chemicals on a regular basis because of the volume and because students always screw up. We also had to follow the procedures and use only what's provided by the school. So I'm used to it after many years. When I lost access to that darkroom I had to build my own and I kind of assumed that at low usage the chemicals would last. My friend and I only develop 10-30 films a month, in batches. So now I gradually learn from my mistakes. Photoflo an the fixer don't last. I did clip tests, though, I'm not that ignorant. But that sulfurization thing caught me by surprise.

One other thing that's different when you have a darkroom in your loft is the smell issue that I've mentioned earlier. Sprint had switched to a vanilla-scented cat-piss colored stop bath several years ago and that thing can drive anyone suicidal.

Thanks again,

Serge.

Sorry for the false link -- I thought I had the right one in the clipboard, but gave you one from a previous post...

Here's the one to the Ilford Rapid Fix fact sheet. http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2006130218312091.pdf

I hate odors also. I use a dilute citric acid stop one-shot and Ilford Rapid Fix or Hypam (which has surprisingly little odor) also "one-batch." I usually save up enough film so that I can safely mix 300-500ml of working fix from the stock, use it to capacity and then toss it in one session.

Photoflo and citric acid stop baths grow mold in a working dilution; it's better to use them one-session and then discard.

Rapid Fixer stock solution lasts 6 months or more for me. If there is any sulfurization, it happens in the Ilford bottle/jug and it gets recycled when the fixer is gone/discarded.

At any rate, if you study the Ilford fact sheet, you'll find the storage life for working solutions and the recommended capacities. This should be similar for other rapid fixers. However, they also come with directions and fact sheets

Best,

Doremus

 

[dvornik]

Thank you, that was very helpful.

Adorama was out of bottles I wanted to buy Today. On a more positive note they reminded me I could open a tax-free account with them if I had a business. I kind of knew that but I didn't think of applying... Duh.

 

[Mr Bill]

Interestingly, 7 or 8 years ago i used to intern for a commercial manual-processing darkroom that manually develops film and prints fine art for galleries and art photographers.


One thing that surprised me is that they don't even discard the film developer, they replenish it. I guess at high volume it's a completely different approach.

The big differences, I think, are 1) high-volume users can save a lot of money, and 2) high-volume users are generally regulated as to their effluent. And a 3rd point, the larger tanks used in high-volume processing are much less susceptable to aerial oxidation - they have much better surface/volume ratios.

The problem with a small-scale processor is that it may take more labor to operate a replenished system than what is saved. It's a bit like seeing some money on the ground - it takes the same amount of work to pick up a penny as it does a dollar, but I doubt that many people would pick up the penny. Perhaps I should say that the actual replenishment is not that much work, but one has to keep an eye on things to make sure they remain steady. And when things start to go wrong, it takes time to find out what's wrong.

I am speaking from the standpoint of a lot of practical experience in high-volume processing, albeit mostly color. Enough replenisher in a day to wash someone's house off its foundation.

 

[dvornik]

Yeah, i don't see replenishing working at low volumes but if it works for people why not.

So i'm a proud owner of a brand new bottle. If you live in Brooklyn and have a bicycle schedule your next B&H pickup at their warehouse - Navy Yard is very picturesque. Plus, it's convenient.

 

[DonF]

Liquid toilet bowl cleaner will remove milky hypo residue from a Pyrex glass Schott media bottle in minutes.

 

[btaylor]

Liquid toilet bowl cleaner will remove milky hypo residue.

+1. I have a Durst Printo roller transport processor that was thrown in with some other darkroom stuff I bought as a lot-- one of those "you gotta take it all or nothing" deals. What were probably RA4 chems had been left in the unit until only the dried chemical crust remained. I also found that toilet bowl cleaner was the most aggressive and effective cleaner. Use gloves, beware the fumes. Best of course is to buy a new bottle!

 

[slackercrurster]

Dirty fixer bottles. Isn't life complex now?

Back in the early 70's I would buy premixed, working strength, fixer gallons (think they were Nacco) for a buck a gallon. Same thing with premixed D-76 and Dektol, almost nothing to buy. I would never get dirty bottles, we would just trash them and add to the landfill.

 

[DonF]

Dirty fixer bottles. Isn't life complex now?

Back in the early 70's I would buy premixed, working strength, fixer gallons (think they were Nacco) for a buck a gallon. Same thing with premixed D-76 and Dektol, almost nothing to buy. I would never get dirty bottles, we would just trash them and add to the landfill.

Those small Schott media bottles with non-drip rim and cap are > $10.00 each!!!! Well worth cleaning.

Don