Chrome developed in D76 (oops!)

Marco B · Apr 16, 2008

Hi all,

I just today accidentally developed two Kodak Ektachrome 100G slides in D76 together with 3 sheets of TMax 400, as I thought they also were...

Despite also underexposing by two stops, as I presumed they were TMax as well when shooting, I DO see a visible image, and not to bad actually. I don't have to explain to you all it doesn't look like an "ordinary" slide . It sort of looks like a orange / green color negative. Fortunately, the TMax came out well, despite being intermingled...

However, although it's more of a theoretically question:

- Could these images be somehow printed, salvaged as ordinary BW negatives? (I noticed the visible silver image IS negative? if I am right?)

I guesse, since the slides are dark orange / green, pretty much like safe light filtration, ordinary printing on an enlarger is out the question. :confused:

Maybe I need to go the hybrid approach, scan and convert them to some sort of d***** neg using you-know-what?

Another question:

- Is such a D76, and normal BW developed, fixed and rinsed image actually "stable"? Or will it deteriorate due to the bad processing and some non-removed dyes / chemicals?

Thanks for responses.

Marco

David Grenet · Apr 16, 2008

I must say I don't understand why it's orange/green - I didn't think that there should be a colour mask with tranny film :confused:

Someone will know.

If it has been developed with black and white chemistry it *should* by possible to rehalogenate with a bleach (ferricyanide/bromide?) and then salvage a colour neg out of it - all three colour layers are there but developed as silver instead of as a dye image. I would expect a colour shift though...

It should also be possible to print as black and white with maybe a higher grade paper/filter.

Pinholemaster · Apr 16, 2008

Sure you can print them. This is called cross processing.

railwayman3 · Apr 16, 2008

David Grenet said:
I must say I don't understand why it's orange/green - I didn't think that there should be a colour mask with tranny film :confused:

Someone will know.

If it has been developed with black and white chemistry it *should* by possible to rehalogenate with a bleach (ferricyanide/bromide?) and then salvage a colour neg out of it - all three colour layers are there but developed as silver instead of as a dye image. I would expect a colour shift though...

It should also be possible to print as black and white with maybe a higher grade paper/filter.

There wouldn't be a colour mask in transparency film, but would there be coloured filter layers in the unprocessed film, which would normally be removed during "correct" processing?

tim_walls · Apr 16, 2008

Marco B said:
Could these images be somehow printed, salvaged as ordinary BW negatives? (I noticed the visible silver image IS negative? if I am right?)

The visible silver image will indeed be negative. The first bath of E6 is AFAIK a reasonably standard B&W developer - the negative image formed then more or less plays no further part in the process, and is removed by the bleach step. It's the reversal bath which then 'exposes' the undeveloped silver (i.e. the 'positive',) and the colour developer then acts on the exposed but as-yet-undeveloped image to form the dyes (and also a positive silver image, which is also removed by the bleach.)

So yes, I'd expect a negative silver image. Can't quite work out why the colour though.

There is at least one filter layer in E6 film; presumably one of the steps in E6 must clear this filter - maybe that hasn't happened and that's why the colour? Otherwise, I'm baffled .

(Edit: Oh, I see that's exactly what railwayman3 said! Sorry, I didn't notice!)

Marco B · Apr 16, 2008

Any other suggestions by others for getting rid of that colored filter layer, if at all possible without destroying the developed silver image, to get to a true B&W negative based on this chrome (or at least something close?).

tim_walls · Apr 16, 2008

No idea - I think we need PE here .

Although, a bit of googling suggests two theories; first, that the yellow filter 'dissolves' in the first developer - for whatever reason I'm slightly sceptical, but it doesn't help you much even if that is the case.

The second theory I've found via Google is that the yellow filter is colloidal silver (edit: I've found a reference to this as 'Carey Lea silver',) and is removed by the bleach. In which case, you're also buggered 'cos if you bleach it now you'll lose the negative...

I suppose you could try bleach and then redevelop!

nickandre · Apr 16, 2008

Well, it would make sense that these color filtered layers would go away during the bleaching step (they are(might be) colloidal silver(as is the case with kodachrome)). This, as you may have guessed, would present a problem since bleaching removes silver which is also what the image currently consists of. Don't hold me to this, but I believe a weak bleach would remove the color filter layers (farmers reducer maybe?), but it would also reduce highlight detail as the little bits of silver are bleached away. You can try if you want. Personally, I think you'd be better off bleaching entirely and running it through c41 or the second half of E6 or (possibly) re-developing it as a B+W neg. Any of these would reveal a negative image as your positive possibilities were lost in the fix.

Marco B · Apr 17, 2008

Thanks, still hoping someone can shed some light on the true nature of this filter layer and how to possibly remove it, is it indeed colloidal silver?

Tiberiustibz: I didn't have any intention to get to a positive, I assumed they were TMax from the start (shooting). So my current intention is only to maybe get a better B&W negative than the current one with the dark "filter" layer still on it.

AgX · Apr 17, 2008

There are different chemical mechanisms for discolouring filter dyes whilst processing. I'm not sure in your case.

Furthermore the common form of the yellow filter is, as said, colloidal silver, which needs a silver bleach to get rid off.
However, also organic dyes are used.

Anyway, why not just try some chlorine bleach for the dyes?

Marco B · Apr 17, 2008

OK, since I don't have chlorine bleach, I have attempted to use a ferricyanide bleach as used with my sepia toner. Interestingly, the image did lighten up over all and became more transparent, however, still far from colorless (more like a yellow filter).

I than redeveloped it in plain B&W paper developer. The sheet very much turned back to it's original form, however still lighter (so probably quite a bit easier to print). Some of the cast thus was lost.

Overall, the effect of bleaching and redeveloping thus confirm that at least part of the cast is indeed colloidal silver. I don't know about the remaining color, it might be a dye that is not released in any of the common chemicals.

Marco B · Apr 17, 2008

I realized I had some regular house hold bleach. Out of curiosity, I have cut up one of the two negatives and threw it in a bath of that. No change at all. If it were some (readily soluble) dye, it would probably have reacted with the pretty aggressive house hold bleach, and lost it's color.

I am now actually suspecting that what I have perceived as a kind of "color" and a filter of something, may actually be ALL silver and simply some thick fog all over the sheet. Hence the remaining yellow color due to bleaching.

Any more informed input highly welcomed!!

Marco B · Apr 17, 2008

Scan of chrome

As I wrote before, I have cut up one of the chromes for some experimentation. I have know bleached and redeveloped (in paper developer) the chrome twice. See the attached image.

The upper part is the unmodified transparency as it came out of the D76. The lower part is the bleached and redeveloped transparency. Notice it has considerable more transparency and contrast.

It might be worthwhile to do the same to the other transparency and see if I can print something. I don't expect any great results, but it is fun to try out

rdbkorn · Apr 17, 2008

Another thing you could try is film acceleration. You've basically completed the first part, just need to do a bleach, wash and then C-41 process. Details can be found here: http://people.rit.edu/andpph/pf-faq/faq-22.html

Marco B · Apr 17, 2008

Well, actually, I am not attempting to restore to some sort of color negative or diapositive. As said, I just want to try printing the remaining sheet B&W. The bleaching at least seems to give a bit more contrast and removes some of the very dense (silver?) coat over the sheet.

I also neither have the chemicals, nor the facilities to do color processing...

stefan4u · Apr 20, 2008

Rescue of color Films

Dear Marco !!

Sadly you can't restore this film as a Slide Film, because the needed Silverhalide for color coupling in the E6 CD Step is already gone by fixing the Film... No chance at all

But you can convert it to color negative film, the same way it's possible for mistreated CN Film (C-41). They can be restored to Color negative again by bleaching it (rehalogenate, NO BLIX !!) whash it well and then reexpose to light (or doing that all in bright light). Now do a normal C-41 Processing and colors are reanimated, you will propably need a different filtering and have to be aware of strange colors...

Printing it BW is possible too, but be aware of bleaching the antihalation layer away the normal way (blix), you will loose all image information. Take a mixture of Citric Acid and rapid fixer for a minute to remove the stain.

Look out for the entire Kodak ae-31 manual, very interesting, everything you need is written down there... http://www.kodak.com/global/en/consumer/products/pdf/ae31.pdf

Good Luck,
Regards from Germany,
Stefan

Marco B · May 5, 2008

Result of chrome printed as B&W

Hi all,

I've decided to revive this thread, to all show you the final result. As I wrote before, I wasn't interested to do full cross-processing, nor to restore to a color slide, just to get a decent B&W image.

As bleaching and redeveloping seemed to get rid of most of the "anti-halation?" layer, I now decided to throw the last chrome in ferricyanide bleach and subsequently redeveloped it in ordinary B&W paper developer. This gave a much better printable and transparent image, as can been seen in one of my previouse posts here in this thread.

Well, here's the final print than. Please note it was made with a Zero Image pinhole camera, shot straight into the sun. So this is actually pretty close to what I intended the image to be, despite also underexposing by two stops thinking I was using TMax 400 (actually, not a bad thing after all, since the hightlights are already blown out).

I am happy with the final result

Chrome developed in D76 (oops!)

Marco B

David Grenet

Pinholemaster

railwayman3

tim_walls

Marco B

tim_walls

nickandre

Marco B

AgX

Marco B

Marco B

Marco B

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rdbkorn

Marco B

stefan4u

Marco B

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