China copies of Jobo Products

[CropDusterMan]

Ultimately, China doesn't care. They've been stealing intellectual property rights for years. And besides,
see how well you do as a victim of such a theft when you try to sue a government.

 

[Arklatexian]

China has improved something in their production processes that I'm not sure the rest of the world has figured out. Within the last 2 years, I've noticed them knocking off SUBSTANTIALLY narrower-audience products. The counterfit reels discussed here is one example. The one more frustrating to me personally is they've gone from knocking off mass-market pocket knives that sell tens of thousands of units a year (say, Spyderco Paramilitary 2) to art/niche/limited run knives that sell, at absolute most, less than hundred or so a year (Spyderco Vallotton, Hungarian, Bradly, etc).

Given what it costs the rest of us to get tooled up to make something, it would seem to only be economically viable to knock off something that you believe you can sell a whole lot of. The fact that China is now making (honestly quite good) copies of very small market pieces suggests they've got some trick for making small runs more profitable.

Has anyone thought to ask Jobo if they are having any of their roll film tanks made in China? If they are, and Jobo is selling them, that would answer the "made in China" label question. Jobo would certainly not be the first company to out-source equipment. As to quality control, if these tanks are made by workers in their own homes to specs, the quality might (notice the word "might") be quite good. Better than if some large company made them. I think this is known as "cottage industries"......Regards!

 

[mshchem]

Has anyone thought to ask Jobo if they are having any of their roll film tanks made in China? If they are, and Jobo is selling them, that would answer the "made in China" label question. Jobo would certainly not be the first company to out-source equipment. As to quality control, if these tanks are made by workers in their own homes to specs, the quality might (notice the word "might") be quite good. Better than if some large company made them. I think this is known as "cottage industries"......Regards!

I emailed Jobo's US distributor. He stated "from first hand experience the quality is VERY bad" These are NOT Genuine Jobo products.

 

[Craig]

These are NOT Genuine Jobo products.

The seller never claimed they were.

 

[barzune]

They just might choose to save a buck half way through the production run by switching to lower quality materials and it's on you to notice the change. If you're not paying attention and don't catch the parts that are suddenly failing QC on your end, their feeling seems to be that you obviously don't care so why should they? Note that they're like this internally too; it's not a case of "screw the foreigner".

That's called Bait-and-Switch, and a very good reason to avoid these producers.

 

[AgX]

Ultimately, China doesn't care. They've been stealing intellectual property rights for years.

I rather think chinese entreponeurs took profit of the legal situation. And for that partly the chinese government is to blame.
And what about "stealing" ideas here in the West?
I do not see a basic difference in attitude.
And concerning the legal situation: even if the law would be protecting an inventor, there is a huge gap between being right and getting justice.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

Poor quality from China is a stereotype. Some of the best quality manufacturing in the world is done in China. I know of what I say having spent 12 years manufacturing in China.

When someone disrespect Chinese industry I just remember my Dad's 1972 Chevy with a klunk in the door. The garage found a Coke bottle inside the door. Does that represent American manufacturing, I think not, nor does a few stereotypical stories about Chinese manufacturing.

Remember where your iPhone is made.

A family friend that passed on had made watch hands in Hong Kong. I've seen first hand how they manufacture. Due to increasing cost in HK, he moved his factory in his family village in Guangzho. They can make very high quality products or very cheap products. It all depends what the clients spec out. Yes Iphones are made in China to Apple's high specs so it's a quality product. Don't blame the Chinese as inept manufacturers. Go to any Asian museum and look at the craftsmanship of art created for Imperial China.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Be aware that there are "counterfeit" "copies" of Jobo 2509n reels being offered for sale. I have no idea who is making them but on auction site it states in the fine print country of origin China. Even the little red plastic tabs are copied. 21 bucks delivered seems like a good deal, maybe it is. I don't like intellectual property theft. I'm so fed up with look alike stuff that disappoints.

I have no idea what the legal side of this is but I know that I don't like it one bit.
Best Mike

In my experience,China is able to produce very high-quality goods; This may have to do with an open mind to modern qualiy-control procedures, which are often regarded as patronizing by moreexperienced manufacturing coubtries.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

In my experience,China is able to produce very high-quality goods; This may have to do with an open mind to modern qualiy-control procedures, which are often regarded as patronizing by moreexperienced manufacturing coubtries.

Yes. I'm of Chinese ancestry and they're the most pragmatic people in the world. If they can improve manufacturing to increase the bottom line, they will. However, IMHO, some of the pragmatism is crossing ethical and legal lines.

 

[CatLABS]

99 posts so far. And we still do not know what is wrong with that reel.
If there is anything wrong with it at all...

The materials are not chemical resistant, they corrode, flex, and not all fit the Jobo center cores.
The surface finish is coarse/rough in the negative contact areas.

Jobo is a unique company in the world of manufacturing, which supports a tiny and unique niche market.
If we do not support them now, they will not be around for long and everyone would have to settle for lost knowledge and Chinese knockoffs and one more nail in the coffin of analog photography.

 

[AgX]

Thank you for that update!

(The reel at the photo that was linked to looked quite good. As far as one can judge on such photo.)

 

[Photo Engineer]

The first coins of a given type are quite beautiful, clean and shiny. They are sold as "proof" or "uncirculated". As they make more coins, quality deteriorates. Maybe what we saw was the first run.

PE

 

[CatLABS]

The first coins of a given type are quite beautiful, clean and shiny. They are sold as "proof" or "uncirculated". As they make more coins, quality deteriorates. Maybe what we saw was the first run.

PE

No, the photos seem to be "enhanced" if i may borrow polaroid's parlance.
Either way, they look just fine to the naked eye as it is, but upon closer inspection, they.... dont.

 

[mshchem]

I think that the knock off reels are a product of a 3 D printer, The photos show a very glossy finish. I suspect a polish like Armor All?. How the printer was programmed is anyone's guess.
When a die cracks at a mint it is replaced. The cost of producing a true injection molding tool to produce a product like the Genuine Jobo reel would require (at today's current volume) the price to be astronomical. We benefit from the fact that Jobo has committed the resources to maintain the tooling for these great products. If you think 65 dollars is a lot to spend on a genuine 2509n reel try making one.
We are so very fortunate to have companies like Jobo, Hewes, Ilford, Foma.......On and on that still have a passion for analog darkroom work.
The used market is the biggest competitor but all things even the highest quality motors, switches, reels etc. eventually wear out. I have a working CPP2 thanks to Catlabs support on parts and help. I am retiring in the next couple years and I have made a promise to myself that I am going to buy a nice shiny new CPP3. I suspect it will outlast me.
Best Regards, Mike

 

[RauschenOderKorn]

Has anyone thought to ask Jobo if they are having any of their roll film tanks made in China?

The box it comes in says "Made in Germany".

 

[RauschenOderKorn]

Maybe some leftovers/surplus from the Osiris F1 processor?

I remember from one of their marketing videos, that they had an entire palette of "Jobo-look-alike" tanks, for sure there were some reels, too?

 

[AgX]

The box it comes in says "Made in Germany".

There are german injection moulding firms who have outsourced production to China and partly are communicating that.
Whether outsourcing is economic on such small scale production is to be questioned.
But questioned too can be the term "Made in Germany". There is no fixed rule on what that means.

 

[mshchem]

There are german injection moulding firms who have outsourced production to China and partly are communicating that.
Whether outsourcing is economic on such small scale production is to be questioned.
But questioned too can be the term "Made in Germany". There is no fixed rule on what that means.

Here in the US almost all the injection molding tooling we use is made in China. Cost is biggest factor, but time to produce the tool as well. The Chinese tooling manufacturers work 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week. We can get tooling in half the time compared to 20 years ago. There's usually a lot of FedEx of parts for approval of the parts. We generally then use a local molder for our parts.
Mike

 

[CatLABS]

There are german injection moulding firms who have outsourced production to China and partly are communicating that.
Whether outsourcing is economic on such small scale production is to be questioned.
But questioned too can be the term "Made in Germany". There is no fixed rule on what that means.

There are very clear rules on what made in germany means, and it is strictly regulated.

Jobo products are WHOLLY made in Germany, with exception of some small/minor electronics components. They are manufactured in Germany and assembled by hand, in Germany.

 

[mshchem]

Here's a nice little video. You can see the actual German folks making the product. Of course like the FAKE US MOON LANDINGS that were actually filmed in the desert in New Mexico, this could all be made up.


Best Regards From Iowa where the tall corn grows! Mike

 

[AgX]

There are very clear rules on what made in germany means, and it is strictly regulated.

Then please name these regulations.

There are none.
You have to go to court in each case if you feel betrayed.

 

[Craig]

The box it comes in says "Made in Germany".

And the box may very well be made in Germany. Doesn't mean that what's inside is Made in Germany.

 

[Sirius Glass]

And the box may very well be made in Germany. Doesn't mean that what's inside is Made in Germany.

Made in the USA means that at the minimum some of the assembly was done in the US but sub assemblies and parts can come from anywhere.

 

[AgX]

And the box may very well be made in Germany. Doesn't mean that what's inside is Made in Germany.

Actually recently I got a box in hand were it said "Box made in..."

 

[mshchem]

Then please name these regulations.

There are none.
You have to go to court in each case if you feel betrayed.

Dead Link Removed

This is close. EU requirements for labeling underwear.