China copies of Jobo Products

[Cholentpot]

Yonguo makes some pretty good knockoff stuff these days. Their flash triggers are second to none.

 

[DREW WILEY]

You have to distinguish between what a small ethical dedicated facility in China can do, like a custom camera maker, versus the shipload after shipload of wretched junk they export, MANDATED by the big box stores like Wal Mart, Home Depot, etc. As a professional buyer, I know the story inside out. Therefore I regard even the term, outsourcing, as deceptive. If it were merely outsourced to a party who can make the same thing
more efficiently, that would be one thing; but what you actually get is a vastly inferior substitute. So my preferred expression is bait and switch.
And as for patent protections, Ha! I've had personal friends spend their all their savings acquiring a patent and startup inventory, then making the fatal mistake of trying to market their product to some of the aforementioned big retailers. The buyers in those firms look at the item, then a Chinese clone of it appears on the shelves six months later. So they go back and Wal Mart tells em, "Go ahead, sue us; we have a bigger legal department than your entire county. You'll be lucky if your grandchildren ever see a dime". True. And I've heard numerous stories far worse than that. Here in
the US our stock market structure and CEO greed has essentially caused the slow suicide of most of our own manufacturing. It took a generation to
destroy, and will take another generation to rebuild. Potential startups can't even find skilled machinists or tool and die makers. Those jobs pay
very well, and there the demand is there. But our dysfunctional education system assumes the only two career paths out there are either in software
or flipping burgers. The answer seems to be in setting up express trade apprentice programs in community colleges. ... This afternoon I have to take
my truck to a fellow who quit his job as a high-paid Bayer engineer because he now makes more money fixing cars. He got into that gig because
he couldn't find anybody competent or honest to fix his own BMW, or the Benz's or his co-workers. I merely have a lowly Toyota 4WD truck.

 

[Michael Guzzi]

[...]
Potential startups can't even find skilled machinists or tool and die makers. Those jobs pay
very well, and there the demand is there.
[...]

They may pay very well, but they are quite challenging jobs. And not everybody has the nerves to deal with it. I do, but alas; I'm in the wrong country.

 

[john_s]

Poor quality from China is a stereotype. Some of the best quality manufacturing in the world is done in China. I know of what I say having spent 12 years manufacturing in China.........

No doubt. My experience is that many (not all) of the products are very substandard. Products like the Jobo reels (and surely the 2509n reel isn't going to be sold in very big quantities) are copied by making a mould (=mold in USA) from an original, so it's a "second generation" shape. If it's done really well, it might work just as well as the original, but I've had experience of Chinese products made this way (not photographic) that aren't quite the same dimensionally. The other matter is the material used. I've noticed a number of Chinese electrical appliances (refrigerators, hair dryers) use a plastic that never stops emitting a strong plasticky/solvent-like smell in use, even after several years. To me this means that it's possibly breaking down or changing its characteristics. In any event, it's unpleasant.

 

[Peter Schrager]

I have an next to 3 machinists and they have very little work...I think it's amazing that these skills are disappearing right in front of us
Corporations suck...I go into almist any starbucks and the place is jammed
Then I read the profits are not up to snuff
What bull...paying themselves and the banks
I do own a piece of audio equipment from China that's well done..for the price point
Oh well good luck with your jobo...I use a tray!

 

[benjiboy]

If the consumer goods that are made in China were made in the West they would probably cost so much that very few people would be able to afford them, certainly the majority of the domestic appliances T.V's computers tablets smart phones in my home were made in the Far East and they have been very satisfactory.

 

[pbromaghin]

The Chinese built The Great Wall Of China and were a highly sophisticated scientific and mercantile society before America existed, and we in Britain were living in mud huts and painting our faces with woad.

But didn't Mel Gibson look fantastic?

 

[Photo Engineer]

If the consumer goods that are made in China were made in the West they would probably cost so much that very few people would be able to afford them, certainly the majority of the domestic appliances T.V's computers tablets smart phones in my home were made in the Far East and they have been very satisfactory.

And yet, the president of Apple said that he could make iphones and ipads here in the US for very little cost increase, but that Apple could not find qualified or willing workers in our workforce to do the job.

PE

 

[DREW WILEY]

Nonsense, Benji. It costs a lot of money to ship things halfway around the world, and then to lose a significant portion of your sales due to periodic
supply disruptions. A number of companies are beginning to realize that. In the case of steel, our scrap steel first shipped over there, then shipped
back as semi-finished product. Nobody wins except the commodities brokers who have it rigged that way. And as far a cheaper prices, Ha! In some
cases, you get what you pay for - stuff that isn't a bargain at all because it's not as durable or efficient. In other cases, the Chinese have bought
entire US manufacturing companies outright and reissued vastly inferior products at the same prices or even higher, and then run on the reputation
of a US brand name until its ruined. I call it slash and burn marketing. A couple of years of high profits, then nothing of value ever grows there again,
and they move on. Of course, US companies do that on their own, except that they're not US companies anymore. Some are Cayman Island companies without a single employee there, so are essentially a banking shell game to dodge taxes and labor laws. Big corporation get to legally
do things that would put any small businessman in prison. So nowadays lots of alleged US manufacturers make next to nothing themselves. They're just a brand logo stuck on something imported. But even the Chinese are getting undercut. Reminds me of Taiwan forty or fifty years ago - atrocious junk. But now they do a better job with cast iron than we do. I prefer machinery made in Japan and Germany, or when it's still possible, the US,
and ironically, most of the remaining cases of actual US mfg are foreign-owned companies. This doesn't mean a Chinese mfg product is inherently inferior, just that it PROBABLY is. You just have to know who made it and for what specific market. I'm sick of the whole game. Retiring in one more
week, remodeling my house, and then pretending to be a professional photographer again.

 

[AgX]

I prefer machinery made in Japan and Germany.

A great lot of german machine builders transferred their production to where the market is/to where the wages are lower.

 

[benjiboy]

A great lot of german machine builders transferred their production to where the market is/to where the wages are lower.

That's the capitalist principal, British companies do the same thing but they don't reduce the product price to the consumer, they increase the companies profits and dividends to the shareholders

 

[benjiboy]

And yet, the president of Apple said that he could make iphones and ipads here in the US for very little cost increase, but that Apple could not find qualified or willing workers in our workforce to do the job.

PE

Has anyone told Donald Trump that ?

 

[Craig]

He stated Lucas made parts to the specifications given by the contractors. Perhaps Rolls Royce were fitted with higher quality Lucas components than a Morris or Triumph...?

Of course they were. Back in the 50's Rolls Royce paid £2 for a speedometer and Jaguar paid 10/-. Who do you think got parts built to a higher standard?

 

[DREW WILEY]

I sell German-MADE machines and tools, not simply from German-owned companies. There's a high demand for them here. Ironically, the Chinese
demand for American-made products apparently fools a lot of them into buying American-labeled items that were actually made in China to begin
with! And I know certain German companies who have their own secondary junk brands for sale in Europe which they wouldn't dare sell in the US
because they don't want their quality reputation tarnished. With everyone racing to the bottom in terms of quality, and there being extremely little
profit margin to manufacturers at the bottom, yet rabid competition, it amazes me that so few companies serve the high-end niches where they've
got carte blanche. For instance, during the five minute interruption starting and completing this post, I moved almost $5000 worth of German tools.

 

[pdeeh]

Sort of. This is something I've brushed up against having some of the parts I've designed or help designed actually get produced. First of all, the Chinese are perfectly happy to say "Oh, you're shopping solely on price? Here's the cheapest, lowest quality product we know how to make." So when you meet with their product guys and make it clear that price is the reason you're looking for Chinese steel rather than US or German steel, they start showing you the lowest quality stuff they have in order to wow you with the low cost. Second thing is that the Chinese do capitalism better than we do now. Any way they can increase their profit at the expense of the customer is a good idea in their books. So, they firmly believe quality control is your problem. That's not to say they aren't doing QC on their end; they definitely are. They just might choose to save a buck half way through the production run by switching to lower quality materials and it's on you to notice the change. If you're not paying attention and don't catch the parts that are suddenly failing QC on your end, their feeling seems to be that you obviously don't care so why should they? Note that they're like this internally too; it's not a case of "screw the foreigner".

So you can get good stuff out of them so long as you pay them for good quality stuff and then keep an eye on them to make sure they deliver what you agreed on.

may I ask what the evidential basis is for all these very categorical statements about "what happens in China"?

can you point to specific examples in the public domain? do you have verifiable personal experience?

or is it simply what you think happens?

 

[Prest_400]

I have an next to 3 machinists and they have very little work...I think it's amazing that these skills are disappearing right in front of us
Corporations suck...I go into almist any starbucks and the place is jammed
Then I read the profits are not up to snuff
What bull...paying themselves and the banks
I do own a piece of audio equipment from China that's well done..for the price point
Oh well good luck with your jobo...I use a tray!

That's an issue with companies not working local and not fostering the resources there are close, insted choosing to squeeze out things. I'm on Drew's points.

And wherever there is a job, it may not be good. I'm a recent graduate (Business) and finding myself undercut by interns (so cheap for companies) and overcut by someone experienced that can step down, or must step down. Doesn't help that the Shanish job market has been obliterated. As a note, some of these specialized manufacturing jobs are nicely paid and do not require a degree, infact jobs requiring a degree seem to be paid worse.

It's sad to find that you have dedicated yourself to something and then no one puts faith into the graduates. This year most of the graduates went into the Big 4 accounting companies, alright pay but find yourself working long past 8h at times. In essence, many companies want full commitment and dedication but you don't feel that is reciprocal because you are being exploited.

I doesn't help things that your wage is low and that doesn't foster consumption of more expensive local mfg goods. ie. If the China thing is 1/2 the price and does ok, I may tend to get that instead of a German product because it squeezes my income.

And yet, the president of Apple said that he could make iphones and ipads here in the US for very little cost increase, but that Apple could not find qualified or willing workers in our workforce to do the job.

PE

I don't know much about the US, aside of a visit to NYC, but I'd bet that there is. Not of course if you want them to work under sweatshop conditions, 12+ hours at a low wage and you don't train them.

I recall browsing about Levi's, and how the 1980s 501's my dad bought were really solid. Nowadays, not so. Then it seems that Levi's still produces jeans in the US, however an overseas Levi's is around $60-80 (in US; in EU 100€) and a US made rockets past $200. Do those $200 really mean the additional cost? There are outrageous margins.

At least Kodak film is made in Rochester, NY; and Fuji in Tokyo, Japan!

 

[Wallendo]

...


I don't know much about the US, aside of a visit to NYC, but I'd bet that there is. Not of course if you want them to work under sweatshop conditions, 12+ hours at a low wage and you don't train them.

I recall browsing about Levi's, and how the 1980s 501's my dad bought were really solid. Nowadays, not so. Then it seems that Levi's still produces jeans in the US, however an overseas Levi's is around $60-80 (in US; in EU 100€) and a US made rockets past $200. Do those $200 really mean the additional cost? There are outrageous margins.

At least Kodak film is made in Rochester, NY; and Fuji in Tokyo, Japan!

I once participated in a "Leadership" course and one of the other participants worked for a local plant manufacturing computer chips. It was owned by a multinational corporation. I asked him why they did so much manufacturing overseas, since manufacturing chips is a highly automated process involving very few employees. His response was that they had plants in the US and Indonesia using the same manufacturing equipment. When upgrading the equipment, they would close their Indonesian plant for the weekend to do the upgrade and give their employees copies of the new manuals in English to take home. Those employees would take home the manuals, figure them out (even if they couldn't read English) and return to work on Monday ready to go. With their US employees, that company would have to shut down the plant for a week and also hire the local technical/community college to set up a week-long training program to teach US workers how to operate the upgraded equipment.

 

[DREW WILEY]

The interview was correct. Tim Cooke said that in China you could fill a couple stadiums with machinists and die-makers. In the US, you'd have trouble filling a typical company lunch room. But that doesn't mean I'm a fan of what they're doing. For instance, they've offshored their profits to
Ireland for a lower tax rate. But how low can you go? That strategy has gotten Ireland itself into a bit of financial trouble, and now Apple is fighting
even Irish taxes. Guess they want everything free plus a rebate. But that it why we people in the middle class work and pay taxes, so billionaires
don't have to! The brighter news is that there is an uptick in trade training opportunities in this country, but mostly at the junior college level.

 

[Marcelo Paniagua]

Related to Chinese product quality, one should keep in mind that China has quality stadards for every budget. My other passion besides cameras is string instruments. If you are looking for a master class violin or cello, China has the best of the best, just dont expect them to be cheap. On the other hand, if you are looking for the cheapest violin, they got that too ($20 or so will get you something that looks like a violin). My current violin cost me $300.00, from a workshop on China (not a factory), and its a pretty decent instrument that I love and cherish. Its all related to the price range you are interested.

In other words, you get what you pay for. Nothing more, nothing less.


Regards

 

[DREW WILEY]

You're talking about small production items. When you get to mass-produced, you rarely get what you pay for! That's because a lot of it is bait and
switch look-alike for former US equivalents, but of far lower quality, while holding the original high price point. If they can run on a brand name reputation rather than merely price point, they'll do it, at least until a sufficient number of potential purchasers become aware of the ruse. Good products can be made in China, but I've known of businessmen making over twenty trips there to find someone to do it. Cottage industries are a
totally different topic because deceptive stock market shenanigans don't come into play.

 

[Marcelo Paniagua]

I used to work with a retail company that sold tools and hardware stuff, kinda like Home Depot or Lowe's. We did several trips to China to find suitable companies that will manufacture our own brand merchandise. Like I said before, even when talking about mass production goods, there are levels of quality. Some would make certain items for US $0.02 while other will charge $0.20. We ordered "test" batches from both companies . $0.02 goods lasted a few days (or hours ) while most of $0.20 goods where as good as famous brands goods.

Just talking about my experience. Even Leica products has their quality issues so it isnt exclusive to China.

Regards

 

[DREW WILEY]

I commend you for the effort. Many big box buyers in the US are influenced by bribes, pure and simple, or corporate strategy of establishing monopolies by destroying dosmetic manufacture on purpose. I could describe another blantant instance that has happened in the past two weeks
if I wanted to. A few buyers in several of these companies have gotten caught and gone to prison. At one time I got invited to a parley with some big commodities brokers trying to assess our side of the equation, as distributors. Not long thereafter I got offered a position in volume sales of import steel. The pay was incredible. But it's also a high risk, potentially dead-end type of career. You can easily find yourself on a slippery slope as an expendable pawn in something shady. I'd rather be a steady tortoise than a road-killed hare!

 

[adelorenzo]

I can't find any of these knock-off reels on eBay. Only thing that comes up in my searches cost more and appear to be the genuine product.

 

[Marcelo Paniagua]

Sorry but what effort are you talking about?

By the way, our company was on Mexico. There wasn't a company that could handle the quantities requiered at a feasible time and cost constrait, so China was our only option.


Regards.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I sure got some smug revenge when a local manufacturer of big automated industrial drill press/milling machines came in here and didn't want to pay
for a US made machinist's caliper. He was having problems with the a key component made in China being out of specification and not fitting. So he
was going to fly there personally with his own caliper, which he obviously didn't buy from me since I sell US-made. He also needed his parts shipped very quickly because he was already behind on standing orders. Then, out of the 600 of thse parts that came in, only two fit. So he was out around $20,000 for skimping a fifty bucks on a caliper, and lost several million in sales due to it. That's what I call smart! And he did it all by himself. Usually you have to hire an MBA when you intend to do something really stupid really efficiently.