Chemistry question about types (purity) of Sodium Sulfide for sepia toning

[Juan Valdenebro]

I have used other toners... From what I got back then, I remember I thought those don't give me the same tone sulfide gives... I know everything depends on paper and paper developer. In this case, I want a slight warm toning, not archival, and beginning with the highlights only. Not a big shift, and not a brown print.
Do other toners fit?
Thanks.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Papers will be fiber: MG Classic, MG Warmtone and Fomatone 131 and 132.
Developers will be Dektol, Ilford MG and NeutolWA.

 

[mshchem]

This is easy to make yourself or buy ready made.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...aphers_Formulary_06_0045_Toner_for_Black.html

Thiourea or also known as, as previously stated, thiocarbamate.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Hi ms,
I used thiourea in the past... Am I wrong remembering tones are different from sulfide tones?
Does it start slowly by the highlights?
By the way, I just bought the Sodium Sulfide: looks normal, yellow flakes. 250g.
The KBr and the Ferry (1Kg. each) are special order, so they'll contact me back when they receive both.

 

[koraks]

Thiourea toners are (almost without exception) indirect toners. Depth of toning depends on bleaching. Bleaching starts (rather: is initially most noticable) in the highlights. So that requirement is met.
Image tone is determined by the ratio of thiourea : sodium hydroxide in the second/toning bath. More hydroxide gives more chocolate brown tones similar to sulfide toners, less hydroxide gives more yellowish tones.
Combined toning with selenium shifts tones to more purplish; especially attractive is a deep brown toning combined (prior or after; different effects) with selenium toning.

Frankly I see no good reason to resort to sulfide toners with the availability and flexibility of thiourea toners. The latter are IMO vastly superior in all respects.

 

[gorbas]

Isn't Thiourea also nasty and cancerogenic?

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Thiourea toners are (almost without exception) indirect toners. Depth of toning depends on bleaching. Bleaching starts (rather: is initially most noticable) in the highlights. So that requirement is met.
Image tone is determined by the ratio of thiourea : sodium hydroxide in the second/toning bath. More hydroxide gives more chocolate brown tones similar to sulfide toners, less hydroxide gives more yellowish tones.
Combined toning with selenium shifts tones to more purplish; especially attractive is a deep brown toning combined (prior or after; different effects) with selenium toning.

Frankly I see no good reason to resort to sulfide toners with the availability and flexibility of thiourea toners. The latter are IMO vastly superior in all respects.

All good points, koraks.
Thank you!
It seems with that wide tone range, thiourea will be the near future for me too. I bet when I tried thiourea I didn't know about the differences between papers and developers, so I wasn't able to get a lot of tones close to sulfide...
I hope that type of toners (or the chemicals for them) can travel by air without restrictions, as that's my real problem.
Have a good day!

 

[markbau]

I have used other toners... From what I got back then, I remember I thought those don't give me the same tone sulfide gives... I know everything depends on paper and paper developer. In this case, I want a slight warm toning, not archival, and beginning with the highlights only. Not a big shift, and not a brown print.
Do other toners fit?
Thanks.

I like a light toning too. How much gets toned depends on how much you bleach. Most bleach formulas are way too strong and control is impossible. My bleach formula is:
Bromide 4g
Fericyanide 4 g
Water 1.25 litres
Time in the bleach is 15 - 45 seconds.
I got this procedure from a wonderful Bob Carnie YouTube video.
If you a want subtle effect don't use warm tone papers. Any amount of bleaching on warm tone papers will cause them to go all over brown when re-developed.
I use Ilford MGFB classic. The effect is pretty much what Kenna gets. I then tone (after a good rinse) in fairly strong selenium toner (1:10) for a split effect.
I would like to try this of Ilford cool tone and also on ART 3000 but haven't purchased paper for about a year now. I'm told ART 3000 tones beautifully with this method.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Hi markbau, thanks for that!
Yes, for a slight warm higlights toning, we need at least some neutrality, or that warmth just can't be seen. That's why Kenna uses MG Classic that much.
I want to try -also- what fomatone can do when it's developed for a more neutral tone than it's usual. Yet I don't know if it will go beyond the first tests...
Bob Carnie is such a great printer and such a great person and teacher!
I just wrote down those 4/4/1.25, thanks again!

 

[koraks]

Isn't Thiourea also nasty and cancerogenic?

Well, don't eat it. But thiourea is easy to contain and doesn't fume. So the risk is manageable.

 

[mshchem]

Hi markbau, thanks for that!
Yes, for a slight warm higlights toning, we need at least some neutrality, or that warmth just can't be seen. That's why Kenna uses MG Classic that much.
I want to try -also- what fomatone can do when it's developed for a more neutral tone than it's usual. Yet I don't know if it will go beyond the first tests...
Bob Carnie is such a great printer and such a great person and teacher!
I just wrote down those 4/4/1.25, thanks again!

Fomatone is amazing paper. It can be toned with everything. Even Kodak Blue toner (gold toner mix from formula) gives amazing chalky blue color. I've done combination toning and Fomatone responds with everything. It's a great paper without any toner.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Fomatone is amazing paper. It can be toned with everything. Even Kodak Blue toner (gold toner mix from formula) gives amazing chalky blue color. I've done combination toning and Fomatone responds with everything. It's a great paper without any toner.

My favourite paper without toners, when it's developed with Agfa NeutolWA's formula.

 

[markbau]

Fomatone is amazing paper. It can be toned with everything. Even Kodak Blue toner (gold toner mix from formula) gives amazing chalky blue color. I've done combination toning and Fomatone responds with everything. It's a great paper without any toner.

That’s interesting because every warm paper I’ve tried my toning with just goes all over brown even with very short bleach times. I’ll have to get my hands on some. Is Kodak blue a bleach and redevelop? Does it start at the highlights or the shadows?

 

[mshchem]

That’s interesting because every warm paper I’ve tried my toning with just goes all over brown even with very short bleach times. I’ll have to get my hands on some. Is Kodak blue a bleach and redevelop? Does it start at the highlights or the shadows?

Kodak T-26, uses Gold chloride, thiourea, and a couple other ingredients. I've found it lasts a long time, back in the day, Kodak understated, IMHO, the capacity. It's not cheap, but gold chloride solution is available on Ebay, or you can buy 1 gram ampules of the Auric chloride crystals. People should try gold toning at least to see the results.
Contact papers like Azo tone a deep cold black, warmtone papers like Fomatone have a lovely blue color like faded denim blue jeans.
125px.com has an archive of most of the Kodak tech sheets including a brilliant one on toners.

 

[mshchem]

Holy cow. The Kodak Toning PDF on 125px.com calls out for ANHYDROUS SODIUM SULFIDE. I'm not sure how you would ship or store it. Anhydrous needs to be kept in a glass bottle. Anyway lots of good info at 125px.com

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Interesting and confusing subject...
I guess if the sulfide is at least "clean", I mean without residues affecting the print, there are chances, and testing is the only way to see if it's usable and clean.
Possibly most of them can work, as some members think.

 

[mshchem]

I suspect any significant level of sulfide will tone prints. The bleach and redevelop sepia toners are very quick.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

@RalphLambrecht: I've been avoiding using Sulfides due to smell, toxicity and fogging scares. Black salt is a more attractive alternative if it does work. Can you give more details of your black salt based toning process?

Unfortunately, I don' have extensive experience with it but I successfully prepared a 2% solution and direct-toned with it for 8 minutes to warm the image tone.works similarly to toning in Viradon.