Cheap printers and digital negatives

[tykos]

Hi, my understanding is that pigment inks are required to make good digital negatives.
I've just discovered that my horrible and ultracheap Epson multifunction printer indeed uses black pigment inks https://www.epson.it/it_IT/prodotti...ness/workforce-wf-2840dwf/p/32184#accessories , so: would it be suitable to dabble in some salt printing experiments, leaving bigger and more professional printers for when i'll be more confident with the process?

 

[koraks]

Yes, you could start there. The requirements on the printer and inks actually depend also on the process you'll be making negatives for. E.g. classic cyanotype requires only relatively thin/low-contrast negatives that can be produced with any printer. Processes like salted paper need long-scale negatives that require one or more pigment ink channels. Which processes will you be printing with?

I'd just give it a try and see where it'll take you, keeping in mind that the density of your negatives may be a limitation depending on the process you're using. For any given alt. process, determine the exposure time of the print first, producing a good deep maximum density. Stick to this exposure time and adjust the negative so that you can also print a clear paper white. If you can't get a paper white even with the densest negative you can make, you'll know that the printer/inks are inadequate for the purpose. You can then either opt for a different printer, or dial back the print exposure time, but the penalty of the latter will be flat, lifeless prints.

 

[tykos]

i'm looking at salt prints, so yeah, one of the most picky process as per my understanding.
Fact is i don't have space for a better printer, this is my home multifunction one so i'll try.
Thanks!

 

[koraks]

Ah, OK, yes, salt prints are challenging when it comes to producing a suitable negative. What I'd try in your case is use both the black and yellow channels simultaneously, if possible. Whether this will work depends on the printer driver and how it'll interpret whatever you send to it. I'm not sure whether QuadTone Rip works with this printer; if it does, it would give you some control.

The main drawback of the printer IMO is not so much the ink density, but the coarseness of the negatives you'll produce, since it doesn't have multiple black channels (i.e. a single black channel vs black + light black + light light black). This tends to result in very grainy negatives that usually also exhibit noticeable striations as a result of the head pass pattern. Overall I've personally always found prints produced from such negatives disappointing.

 

[tykos]

it makes sense, the lack of multiple black inks could be a big problem.

 

[koraks]

Still, just give it a try! It seems that QuadTone Rip doesn't support this type of printer, which is a pity. You may still be able to manipulate the ink channels a bit by simply sending a regular color image to the printer. How well this works, I cannot say as it depends on how the driver handles the color information (esp. how it manages the amount of black ink being mixed in with other colors). Linearizing the output may be challenging. The easiest way would be to only use the black channel, but as said, this will produce coarse-looking prints.

You may consider making silver gelatin negatives instead using an enlarger. Using something like x-ray film (which is relatively affordable) and reversal processing, you could project your smaller format negatives onto larger sheet film. Of course, this is only a solution for images originally shot on film (preferably B&W).

 

[tykos]

i'll be shooting on film, and i was looking for something like x-ray. it surely is a challenge, but it's more fun to develop a film than to setup a printer, so...
Something that was holding me up:
- which xray film is better? i reckon not all are suited for photographic purposes, and here in italy it doesn't seem to be lots of them available
- developer: just a standard film developer, i suppose. Or something with more energy to reduce dev times?

 

[koraks]

See if you can get a single sided x-ray film. If you can't get any, just go with any double sided material and live/deal with the backside ad you see fit (strip it after processing, or leave it in place if you can figure out how to process without scratching it).
Any developer should do. X-ray film tends to develop very fast anyway, so you don't need a very active/fast developer.
The main trick is to reverse it; you could use a dichromate-based reversal process (but dichromate is nasty), or use a two-stage process where you first make a positive and then a negative.

 

[tykos]

i think a two stage process is easier (no dialing in another development and chemicals and stuff) and yeah, i'd prefer to avoid dichromate.
it may cost more using copy film, but if i can find some xray it's manageable.

EDIT: dry x-ray film is not suitable, i suppose

 

[koraks]

EDIT: dry x-ray film is not suitable, i suppose

No, that's really intended for very high intensity laser exposure. We'd have to have a 1000x brighter enlarger for it to work, although it would be positive-acting, so no interpositive would be needed. However, I don't think it's feasible.

You can do the interpositive at a moderate enlargement to save costs, or even contact print, and only step up to the desired size for contact printing once you're happy with the interpositive. This will save you some cost in terms of materials. Whether this route is any easier than chemical reversal, I couldn't say. They both require measures to be taken for contrast control; the challenges are different, but I wouldn't say per se that one is easier than the other.

 

[tykos]

the journey is long, i still have to buy silver nitrate and a uv lamp
i think i'll begin with some 4x5 negatives i'll develop for this task and when i'll have the process decently tuned i'll try to enlarge the prints.

I'll look into it, but finding some wet-type x-ray film in europe is quite difficult and it costs something like 1-1.3€/8x10 sheet.
an alternative could arista ortho-litho film which is sold at a similar price in the US, but i couldn't find anything in europe.

 

[koraks]

Yes, the situation with x-ray film used to be easier only a few years ago. Manufacturers are pulling back from this and supply is drying up. Last time I purchased it was when Carestream still sold their excellent mammography film at similar prices (incl shipping & taxes to Europe) you're now seeing. It seems that Fuji Super HR-U is now still similarly priced. I only know about affordable ortho litho film from stories from the old days. There's just no significant market for this product, and therefore a lack of supply.

You could try get in touch with the Italian Fujifilm office and ask if they know who retails this film in your country (or at least in the EU). Then see if you can order through that route.

Btw, 4x5" prints are really nice, too, and nothing beats in-camera negatives. I'd definitely start there and have fun. I still do a lot of 4x5" alt. process contact prints.

 

[tykos]

if i know italian commerce and supply, fuji local office is an answering machine and all the official distributors are for professional users only.

arista ortho litho is made in belgium, but there's evidently no request here.
Bergger has a nice film for this kind of work, but 150€/25 sheets, way pricier than foma ortho.

 

[koraks]

if i know italian commerce and supply, fuji local office is an answering machine and all the official distributors are for professional users only.

Maybe; in that case, try an office in another country. I know there are Fuji offices who do business with retailers and some of those retailers may be willing to place a custom order for you.

I can't comment on the ortho offerings; if the Aristo stuff is (was?) made in Belgium, it would have to be Agfa material and IDK to what extent Agfa still actually coats silver halide products. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. I really can't say. I'm aware of the Bergger stuff and frankly I don't understand how it's positioned in the market at that price point. They must be very anxious to not sell any. But I'm afraid this is a systematic problem with Bergger, who have to rely on 3rd parties for their manufacturing of low-volume products; it's just not a very attractive business model the way I see it.

 

[Peter Schrager]

Maybe; in that case, try an office in another country. I know there are Fuji offices who do business with retailers and some of those retailers may be willing to place a custom order for you.

I can't comment on the ortho offerings; if the Aristo stuff is (was?) made in Belgium, it would have to be Agfa material and IDK to what extent Agfa still actually coats silver halide products. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. I really can't say. I'm aware of the Bergger stuff and frankly I don't understand how it's positioned in the market at that price point. They must be very anxious to not sell any. But I'm afraid this is a systematic problem with Bergger, who have to rely on 3rd parties for their manufacturing of low-volume products; it's just not a very attractive business model the way I see it.

The Berger copy film was/is amazing stuff. basically scratch proof. has been available here in quite some time.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I use both single-side and double-sided x-ray films. I much prefer the latter, especially the green latitude sensitive.
I recommend flat-bottomed trays for those.
X-ray films look great in Alt. processes!

 

[jeffreyg]

I don’t make salt prints but I have made many pt/pd prints from negatives enlarged on to x-ray duplicating film. It has given me excellent results and is a reversal film so that eliminates a step. It costs more than x-ray film. I now usually go the digital route with my 3880 and Pictorico.