Changing color sensitivity of film.

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Ryuji

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Helen, don't worry about the comment you quoted. In the case of 3,3'-diethylthiatricarbocyanine, the spectral sensitivity shifts towards shorter wavelength side and best sensitivity is between 750 and 800nm. This dye works well with bromide emulsions with varying iodide content, as well as various core-shell structures (although there are preferred crystal designs, the preferred form is not too dissimilar to other dyes anyway).

J-aggregate is largely irrelevant in infrared sensitization because very low dye density is chosen. J-aggregate is used when sharp tuning (sharp cutoff) of spectral sensitivity is necessary, such as multilayer color films and modern multigrade papers.

The mechanism of spectral sensitization (and desensitization) has been elucidated quite well in the past decade, and a lot of old theories are now obsolete. It is very nice to be able to get rid of old empirical rules that don't always work and replace them with a few simple physical and chemical principles that explain all known issues that had not been explained before. This is the exciting time to understand sensitivity mechanisms of silver halide media, but like anything, it is necessary to have good background in solid state physics (semiconductor materials) and organic chemistry. Tani's book is excellent on this topic, and many conjectures he stated therein were actually later figured out by himself. But again, as you mentioned, the prerequisite to understand this topic (that is, his book) is not that modest.

When you take spectral sensitivity measured with chloride emulsions and try to infer it to bromide system, there is one issue that needs attention. Some dyes sensitize chloride emulsions but desensitize bromide emulsions. Good dyes that are used in modern practice generally don't have this sort of problems, but historical ones such as erythrosin can sensitize chloride emulsions decently, but it is impractical for bromide system. In this particular case, erythrosin adds a bit of green sensitivity but depresses the intrinsic sensitivity to blue light. Other than this, gross features of the dye rarely change drastically between chloride and bromide emulsions.
 

Photo Engineer

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An unexpected "J" aggregate can form at any time. For example, a dye that is a green sensitizer for a Bromide emulsion can become a red sensitizer for a Bromo-Iodide emulsion due to strong adsorption. The same can happen for almost any dye used improperly.

BTW, the dye I refer to above is actually used as a red sensitizer in a high iodide Kodak product, so this is no useless or rare phenomenon, but when it hits you, you get unexpected and "wrong" results. For example, expecting green and getting red sensitization.

Therefore, it is possible to imagine a short IR dye becoming a long IR dye if a "J" aggregate forms or a red sensitzer becoming a short IR sensitzer if a "J" aggregate is formed. There is no way to really tell beforehand without testing on the emulsion in question.

Regarding erythrosine, it is usable and gives fine results if you know how to use it. If you don't know how to use it properly it will give poor results. It is also quite economical, as it is about 1/4th the price of many other common sensitizing dyes and is more stable. It is therefore useful for doing a lot of early on experiments without eating up a lot of expensive dye.

Also, the expensive dyes are hard to get, and becoming harder to get all the time.

PE
 

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In the spirit of the original poster, I’m wondering if it’s possible to selectively de-sensitize certain dyes?
Namely the green sensitizing dye in a superpan film?
That is to create a sensitivity curve with a shape like HIE or Konica 750 film.

Perhaps even with by post exposing to strong green light and then bleaching out, a la reversal film?
 

Donald Qualls

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Exposing and bleaching surely won't work -- that uses up the halide, not the dye. I doubt there's any way to selectively remove one of the color sensitization dyes, unless you can find out exactly what dye was used and find a selective antagonist -- and then you'd need to treat, then dry in total darkness, before exposure (because the dyes just let the halide react to certain wavelengths, they don't let some halides react and leave others unexposed.
 

Sirius Glass

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I get more saturated colors by using Kodak UltraColor or VividColor film.
 

Helge

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Exposing and bleaching surely won't work -- that uses up the halide, not the dye. I doubt there's any way to selectively remove one of the color sensitization dyes, unless you can find out exactly what dye was used and find a selective antagonist -- and then you'd need to treat, then dry in total darkness, before exposure (because the dyes just let the halide react to certain wavelengths, they don't let some halides react and leave others unexposed.
Well, I crossed a few wires in my brain there.
But the basic idea of somehow emphasizing (not bandpassing) certain bands might not be completely impossible.
A combination of selective re-exposure and bleaching a la SLIMT might be possible.
 

Donald Qualls

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I think selective filtration at exposure time is a lot more likely to be feasible. I don't know how (or if) the dye bonds to the halide, but they must be at least intimately associated for the dye to cause the halide to activate by exposure outside halide's normal wavelength band.
 

Helge

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I think selective filtration at exposure time is a lot more likely to be feasible. I don't know how (or if) the dye bonds to the halide, but they must be at least intimately associated for the dye to cause the halide to activate by exposure outside halide's normal wavelength band.
Problem is of course that with an SLR you can’t focus through the lens with a R72 filter in place.
Being able to somehow in post or pre attenuate or amblify certain sensitized dyes would be very helpful. Making use of an orange or red filter possible for a passable IR effect.
 

Donald Qualls

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Or you need to come up with a way to mount the R72 filtration behind the mirror...
 

jnamia

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One can hypersensitize film to increase effective film speed before or after exposure. My question is: Can the color sensitivity be changed in somewhat the same manner; or is that only possible when coating the film? I realize that it would have to be done with a dye rather than a vapor bath. My reason for asking is that ortho emulsions do not excel at cloud photography.

Thanks

Richard
If you look at Denise Ross' website (the light farm ) and her first book she is able to do RGB printing from 3 different black and white emulsions she makes. They each have different sensitivities ( I am guessing here ) so she is able to make separation negatives and Tri Chrome images from these home made emulsions. I think she also uses food coloring for a variety of things in her work and experiments. It's too bad she didn't make a comment in this thread, this is right up her alley.
 

Helge

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Or you need to come up with a way to mount the R72 filtration behind the mirror...
Brilliant idea. Though not quite optimal from an optical viewpoint. It should be doable with a gel cut to size.
Now if only someone would make good IR gels that doesn’t cost an arm an a leg…
 

Donald Qualls

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Or you could do your IR work with a rangefinder camera. Pretty sure I'd have no trouble focusing my Kiev 4 with an R72 filter on the lens, and parallax doesn't matter if you're beyond a couple meters.
 

Helge

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Or you could do your IR work with a rangefinder camera. Pretty sure I'd have no trouble focusing my Kiev 4 with an R72 filter on the lens, and parallax doesn't matter if you're beyond a couple meters.
That’s where I am now, and it’s good, but that precludes easily using tele and macro/closeup.
Also the only kind of rangefinder I like is the fixed lens kind.
Anything else devolves into a stupid series of compromises. Beautiful interesting compromises, but compromises nevertheless.
 

Donald Qualls

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How much macro work is done in IR? My Kiev is happy with a 135, and the 35, 50, and 135 all use the same filter size.
 

Sirius Glass

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Problem is of course that with an SLR you can’t focus through the lens with a R72 filter in place.
Being able to somehow in post or pre attenuate or amblify certain sensitized dyes would be very helpful. Making use of an orange or red filter possible for a passable IR effect.

Or you need to come up with a way to mount the R72 filtration behind the mirror...

I have a filter adapter ring that allows me to flip the R72 or any other filter out of the way until I want to take the photograph.
 

Donald Qualls

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I have a filter adapter ring that allows me to flip the R72 or any other filter out of the way until I want to take the photograph.

Hey, nice. Does that have a special name?
 

Sirius Glass

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Donald Qualls

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Okay, I think that's actually Fotodiox once the logo typography is translated. Yours is Bay 60 to 67 mm, but the threaded ring is on a hinge? I'll have to look and see if they make one for 77 mm on both ends...

EDIT: oddly, Fotodiox doesn't seem to admit to making this, but there's a kickstarter for the "first" of this type, called Alter RFS.
 
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Sirius Glass

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Okay, I think that's actually Fotodiox once the logo typography is translated. Yours is Bay 60 to 67 mm, but the threaded ring is on a hinge? I'll have to look and see if they make one for 77 mm on both ends...

EDIT: oddly, Fotodiox doesn't seem to admit to making this, but there's a kickstarter for the "first" of this type, called Alter RFS.

Yes the 67mm side is threaded. I hope you find one that meets your needs. It was hard for me to find it. Someone on Photrio pointed me towards it.
 
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