Censorship and the arts

[jd callow]

yep. I'm wrong and we can't be any better than we are!

God Bless America

 

[c6h6o3]

Gee Aggie, the last time I looked, there wasn't a developed nation on the planet that cut people to bits.

Would you call Saudi Arabia developed? They have public beheadings. For more minor offenses, such as theft, Sharia law calls for criminals to lose a hand. I shudder to think about what you lose for adultery.

 

[jd callow]

The Saudi's are a good one to measure the US by and I ask forgiveness for expecting more.

 

[Francesco]

I agree mrcallow. The Saudis and their ways is not the measure. Herein lies the problem in the world - they expect the US to play fair and follow the rules. The rest can just do as they please and saw of heads whenever they please because condemnation is reserved for the US alone. Pathetic! Where I work we manage the good traders not the bad ones. What is the world coming to!

 

[Ed Sukach]

I The rest can just do as they please and saw of heads whenever they please because condemnation is reserved for the US alone.

Not all that simple. We *kill* those who we wish to kill ... not by cutting off heads ... but far more mercifully - we light them on fire in electric chairs ... we strap them down and inject poison into their bloodstream. - We have advanced - at least we don't use gas chambers, anymore --- or do we? Come to think of it - we still hang people. I wonder how much difference it makes to those affected....?

The great state of Texas just killed - by lethal injection - a prisoner *certified* to be insane - a paranoid shizophrenic. Certified by State Psychiatrists. Obvious to any Psych student who has passed Abnormal Psych 101... and against the recommendation of the Texas State Parole Board. And why? Because it made a few ... *demented* (truly DEMENTED) people in power "feel" better.

How many prisoners has Sweden executed in the last ten years?

 

[jd callow]

Ed, you are my hero. Not only do I agree with you, I truly respect your ability not to over heat (as I do) on these subjects.

I believe we do still gas and the armed forces still have the firing squad as an option.

I could be wrong, but does it matter?

 

[Francesco]

Point taken about the death penalty. Sweden does not have one nor will they ever have one. The worst a convicted child murderer gets is 3 to 5 years (depending on his behaviour in their so-called country club prison establishment). There are other ways to snuff out a person's life than a judge pronouncing the death penalty.

 

[Aggie]

What are the civilized countries of the world? Of those how many report accurately everything that they do? I guess Tibet is in full accord with what China does to it. I guess many African nations are in full accord with what their neighbors do to them. I am sure that there are many in Central America that are loving what history has provided for them. Shall we go to South America? How about The Balkan Countries in the last 15 years? No nothing has happened in any of those places that resembles the gross atrocities occuring daily in the USA. Wait Is Georgia a country or a state?

I remember in 1969 talking to my cousin in Odense Denmark about politics. He thumped his little red book, and told me how stupid te american activists rioting were. They were nothing but a bunch of spoiled children using their fathers money to play. Real change he said came from battle and overrunning the government. Is that any better?

BTW Utah still uses the firing squad method

And isn't it a conundrum? We don't want to execute so we incarerate those who break the law. What does that give us? More people incarerated than any other country. I personally would like to see a better method to dealing with crime but what would it be? Allowing all crime so there is no crime? Let anyone do what they want whenever? Crime happens. What do you do about it or do we just stick our heads in the sand and ignore it?

 

[c6h6o3]

we are soo much better than all those backwater republics and dictatorships that a few infringements upon our basic freedoms is no big thing.

The public acceptance of that exact concept is what allowed the Weimar Republic to morph into the Third Reich. Those "few infringements upon our basic freedoms" are always rationalized as "necessary to guarantee national security" and before you know it the types of abuses we're seeing in Iraq now will begin to happen on U.S. soil. All it takes right now for your family to be rousted in the night, yourself arrested and thrown into prison without recourse to legal counsel or any due process of law whatsoever is for the President to declare you an "enemy combatant".

We have historically occupied the moral high ground in relation to banana republics and other repressive police states, but we are quickly devolving into one of them. There is nothing in the Fifth Amendment about "enemy combatants". When those in power break the rules in the name of expediency, we cease to be a nation of laws. And it's happening before our very eyes.

 

[jd callow]

Aggie,
I agree as long as other countries are suspect we shouldn't worry about our behavior.

What does a high incarceration rate say about a country? I don't know, maybe it says that a good number of the citizens don't agree with the laws or that the punishment is excessive or that we have an environment that builds criminals or that our law enforcement and judicial system is top notch (anyone know how OJ is doing with his hunt for Nichole's killer?). And it isn't as if we are afraid of killing them as well as jailing.

No mater how you slice it a high incarceration rate says nothing good about this country.

 

[mobtown_4x5]

The majority of folks behind bars in this country are non-violent drug offenders.
Sort of like our own little "ethnic cleansing " program.
Again, just the facts, there is fairly good information available from AI on the number of people behind bars here and worldwide.
Of course human rights abuses anywhere are unacceptable and unfortunately all too common. I think (just a guess) that it is the hypocrisy in the US that makes folks a little nauseous.

 

[Aggie]

LOL, Yes and how many are in prison in China? Ask Nelson Mandella what he was held for?

As for saying it is mostly drug offenders in jail? Well isn't it illegal to traffic and use illicit drugs? I personally think all not just a segment of the populace should be held to the same standards. That is a law that has been around for a while. If you want change. then do something about it. go run for office instead of being an arm chair politician. If a nobody African American back in the early 60's could without money influence a nation so can you. (Martin Luther King). If you do legalize drugs I hope you also realize that then they have no valid way of coming back and saying that they should sue those who sold them drugs because their health and life suffered as a result. Just like I think that is assanine that people today are suing the tobacco industry because they have cancer. They know the risks they can live with the consequences. On the other hand we also have laws about drunk driving. Isn't it about time those that kill or physically harm irrebacally have to take responsibility for their actions? What about the dead beat dads who don't pay child support? They leave their children to suffer for their actions, but it would hurt their little sensibilities to take responsibility. There are a lot of things you can change. DO IT. Now is the time for action. Use your words and do something proactive.

 

[Cheryl Jacobs]

I just read this entire thread for the first time.

Anyone care to join me for a drink? Or several?

 

[mobtown_4x5]

China :1.51 million, for a rate of 117 per 100,000
Most of them for political reasons, lots of opium addicts, but not a jailable offense.

I'm not sure I agree that legalizing drugs is a good idea or is the answer to the incarceration issue.

I have extensive experience- (thousand of hours and some of in not in an "armchair") doing volunteer work in drug treatment and social work...
but I guess I've been wasting my time, because obviously all the black and hispanic men in prison in this country for being drug addicts (average sentance for possesion: approx 3X white offender for identical quantity) deserve to be there because they just didn't have the moral fiber and good ol' fashioned gumption to rise above their circumstances.
As a person who makes mistakes, I guess I tend to empathize with folks rather than adopt a self-rightous posture.

 

[jd callow]

The population of prisons are represented disproportionately by the poor. Almost without exception the candidate with the most money wins the election.

Might there be a connection -- something along the lines of money buys justice as well as access if not the actual laws?

Q. Who wrote the seatbelt laws?
1. Our benevolent legislators
2. The demanding public
3. The insurance industry


Q. If I steal the investments of thousands via the accounting frauds that are being prosecuted today do you think I will spend as much time behind bars as an indigent California man with 3 petty larceny convictions?

 

[Aggie]

I personally think all not just a segment of the populace should be held to the same standards.

To quote myself see above. I made that statement before you decided (mobtown) that I didn't want the same for all!

As for volunteer work, No I have never done volunteer social work. I got paid to do it. I'm horrible I made money doing it. It helped me eek out a living straight out of college. During that time I saw a father who repeatedly was in court for child abuse take a belt and put his daughter eye out in one of the incidents. Another time a man who we had restraining orders against legally killed his wife. I saw welfare fraud, and I saw those who desperatley needed it, not get help. I spent three years doing this before I couldn't handle the frustration any longer. As for more poor people in jail than the rest of the populace, isn't that more to do with their legal representation? Yeah I agree it takes money to get good legal help. Wouldn't it be nice if there was more pro bono work done by attornies?

Do not get me started on Insurance companies. They manage to rape the public coming and going. Most like to wait out the insured person hoping they will give up or die, rather than fight to get what they paid to be covered for. Ever read the arisa laws? Now that will make you froth at the mouth. This country needs insurance reform. Instead of enacting more laws that make insurance mandatory, make the insurance companies accountable and liable for what they do. Also since they are so good at discounting service to providers, wouldn't it be nice if we could discount what we pay to them? I really hate the fact that some bean counter in an insurance company can diagnose and tell DR.'s what they can prescribe to the public. Before I go further on this rant I will quit.

As for only the rich get elected, Bull pucky. Nice you give up without trying. If you want it bad enough there are ways to get your name out there. Use the internet. If everyone in this country feels the same as you, you can get funds from them. Just like others though, you will have to start out small office and work your way up. That I agree with you on, if you want a high office, you do need the bucks up front to get your name out there. Use the group here, they can be a basis of ideas to help you get elected.

 

[Alex Hawley]

Politics is a great way to lose ethics and spend other people's money. :rolleyes:

 

[Aggie]

MLK started out as a nobody. His big leap into the lime light came with the Rosa Parks incident. Which I think she should be more recognized for.


as for armchair politicians......WE ALL ARE!

As for dissenting voice, I have been mostly the lone one on this thread, Those that have dissented here either gave up or were run off.

I am not for everything that this administration stands for, nor am i for everything republicans stand for. I am also not for everything that the democrats stand for.

Stereotypes of only the poor are incarcerated, and only the poor are taking the illegal drugs is just that. It is across all stratas. I get just as sick seeing someone who is famous get off with a slap on the wrist.

Who exactly are the rich in this country? I sure as hell would like to be in that group someday. Even if it was just to say I had been there once. Why are people stuck in the various income designations? Why are poor kept poor? What is it that would elevate the poor out of their circumstances? What exactly can be done?

As for saying run for office why not? Don't we have the right to run for office if we choose to do so? I made that statement so that if someone and I didn't designate a specific person, wants to make changes, is that not a way to do it? If nothing can be done, why even debate it and why even try by voting?

 

[Francesco]

The question of being rich and having power is probaby more prevalent in countries like the Philippines, Malaysia, some African countries etc. than it will ever be in the United States. I lived in the Philippines during the whole of Ferdinand Marcos' reign and Americans have no idea what true abuse of power really is. Secondly, insurance fraud, accounting fraud, illegal business practices gets punished much more heavily in the US than in Sweden or Italy or the UK. In fact, there are many examples of businessmen in Sweden destroying a company via illegal practices and getting a huge bonus for it (e.g. include the CEO of Nordbanken (Barneus), Skandia Insurance, etc.).

 

[Aggie]

Who are these wealthy people who are vitimizing the poor? Who are the poor unless a minority is automatically classified as poor. By IRS standards most of us here would be classified as wealthy. I sure as hell have never victimized anyone. Yet by Government standards I am wealthy. I just wish I could keep some of that wealth rather than buy food, pay rent, try to save for retirement, transportation costs for hubby just to get to work, (He commutes via BART) INSURANCE, oh yeah and my meds. You all wouldn't want me to forget my meds now would you? Hmm after that not much left. I know my bank book is the poor one I victimize. I must put some more money in it. (I wish)

So by your terms the general population of the USA so long as they are white are vicitmizing minorities? What exactly are we white people doing?

Franceso. You should see what Chavez in Venezuela is doing to the people there. Similar to what Marcos did.

 

[Francesco]

I hear ya Aggie. I am all for diplomacy in dealing with these abuses - what I like to call abuses on a massive scale. Granted you have abuses everywhere, the US being a place where loads are perpetuated. But never in a scale that encompasses the whole country, and generations after. The pros and cons of the death penalty in Texas, etc. pales in comparison to what these people have done to their countrymen over the years and decades. Bordering on genocide. The US in their meddling helped keep Marcos in power but at the very end they also helped to kick him out. It is something no one in the Philippines publicly appreciates. Is the world a global village, are we all neighbours? How long should one wait before diplomacy is replaced with force? The UN never helped the Philippines during their hour of need. Ultimately the people of that country took it upon themselves to kick out a dictator. Fortunately the US put enough pressure on Marcos to leave instead of bombing the crowds (I was there in the streets so I saw this first hand). They helped him escape but that means to me that they helped prevent a massacre. As they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Probably a journalist said that.

 

[doughowk]

Chavez in Venzuela? Sounds like a Fox News/State Dep't target. Wonder why? Could it be because Venezuela is a major oil producer whose leader is antagonistic to the oil companies. If you want to understand the US Gov't foreign policy from Afganistan, Iraq to Venezuela, follow the oil slick.

 

[Francesco]

Well if we are going to use historical data then I suppose one can argue that all races at one time or another have perpetuated some form of genocide. However let me clear up what your position is as it seems to me from your posts. Are you saying that the US is no better a nation (or regime) than that of Taliban Afghanistan or North Korea or The Sudan etc.? Are you saying that it is just as evil (this was I believe the original reason for my involvement in this thread - i.e. the question of evil)? I do not believe the US is perfect by a long shot (my view is not skewed in this regard, heck I am not even an American) BUT RELATIVE to what we see all over the world I do not subscribe to the view that it is as evil as these countries. If that is your view then just like the Philosophy of Religion one can argue either case.

 

[Aggie]

Dead Link Removed

seems 29% of the males in prision in California are white, but 29% are black. what is more surprising is 36% are hispanic. what does this show when compared to the break down of ethnaticity of the state? Shows comperable numbers. As fgor drug offenses it was only 23% of the offenses committed. Now that would mean if only black males commited the drug offenses they still would have had 6% doing other types of crimes. Now reality is the drug abuses were across the board to all cultures. Call the peopl listed in the website and find out more.

As for life sentences connected with drug crimes, In California it is a three strike law before that goes into effect. If caught dealing (let me say that again, DEALING ) that means selling or trafficing in illegal drugs, then you will receive the punishment of life. Parole is still a possibility.

As for Chavez in Venezuela, the US is keeping it's distance in that government. the only time it helps that governement is when there is a natural (IE flood, earthquake etc.) that occurs. How do I know? Well son in law moved here after spending 9 years working in the US embassy there. His family btw is Venezuelen.

As for jdef's last post, I agree. Only problem with it is real world. Communisim in in it's pure form is a wonderful ideal. It has never been practiced in it's pure form. To force individuals to conform to it, is a form of censorship . There is no good solution.

I am wholly against the patriot act. Yes we need security, not at the expense of our freedoms. We should look Back to an Idaho senator named Frank Church and his dismantling of the intelligence community as a link to the current problems. We should look outward, not at our own people. My favorite quote is, "We have met the enemy, and they is us!" Pogo

 

[Aggie]

Using your stats, 19.52% were crimes drug related of which a small portion were for marajuana. that is about 1/5th of the crimes commited. So how can it be that the crimes blacks are in prison for were just drugs? 53.71 % were for just robbery/buglery. The rest for mostly violent crimes. That year there was 28.6% whites in the prisons. 29.9% were blacks in the prisons. It also stated by the year 2003 over 230,000 would be in cal prisons.


I used the current 2004 stats. where blacks had gone down .9% of those in prison. and whites had increased .4%. As for the numbers in prison today it is not close to 230,000 but nearer 160,000.

2 years ago and I am not sepnding the time to find the exact article, the San Francisco Chronicle reported that numbers of hispanics in the state had eclipsed the numbers of whites. that in proportion the number of whites (lots have left the state) is going down drastically while other minorities are increasing.

What about the Asians? they are underpresented in the prisons. There is one really big group that is not represented equally in the prisons and it is on all three links (all of which go back to the CDC) Surprised you are not talking about that inequity? Seems women are not incarcerated as much in fact less than 10% are those in prison.


NOW THE BIG QUESTION IS WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH A THREAD ABOUT CENSORSHIP OF THE ARTS?

Since so far these governemnts have been deemed evil: Nazism, fascism, communism, and republicans. What form of government is left that does not have problems? Also all religion has been deemed evil so we can't seek out devine guidance. Whites are evil, and especially if they are wealthy (which has nothing to do with monitary worth) Is there anything left that is good? Is there anything left that makes most in this thread happy? Not going to respond to this thread any longer. I am going in search of my smile.