Censorship and judgement on APUG and in the world...

StoneNYC said:

"never take advice from someone who isn't already more successful or talented than you" I'm paraphrasing but that was the gist of it.

So I'm sorry that you don't find my work remarkable, but I don't see any images of models or lighting setups so I guess you haven't that kind of knowledge to know how difficult it is to create an image like those two, I'm not saying it's hard, but I don't see anything to suggest you have a clue. I don't find your work remarkable either.... I try to learn from those I feel have a background that would help me improve...

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MattKing said:

Stone:

"Unremarkable" was probably a poor choice of words.

I meant to convey the fact that it wasn't the images themselves that brought rise to the "remarks" that concern you, but rather some of the ideas and words and conversation in the posts, especially when considered in light of the situation you posed at least one of the models in.

And I do have some ideas of the difficulties involved in what you shot - I have studio lights that I use from time to time that are probably about the same age as you are - but the sort of work that appeals to you is probably different than most of the work I like to do.

And I certainly would be wary if I were you about using Donald Trump as an arbiter about the nature of valuable advice .

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tkamiya said:

I will have to say, this is one of the more interesting discussions I've seen here on APUG about an image and what we do when we photograph. It's far more meaningful than "Wow, good tonality! What film did you use?" or "What is art?" type discussions. This is far beyond theoretical discussions we see too often.

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StoneNYC said:

So in your view, no photograph should have a title, because even "tree in a brook" tells you something about the image from the photographers mind, while without the title, someone might intemperate that as 'brook with a tree in it'. Therefore any image with a small title tag has lost some of it's power?

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Photo Engineer said:

Stone;

I had a 45, an M16 and orders to shoot in the 60s. That was in SEA. I also had a camera. Tell Mr. Dump (opps, Trump) to talk to me sometime. I used my camera. This entire thread IMHO is a piece of KRAP in the face of what I have seen on APUG. So, Forget it, close the thread and go back to have a nice nap.

Oh, BTW, I still have an M16 and a 45! No orders though. So, I will not.

PE

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eddie said:

I think this is the sort of response you make which give people pause... You're very defensive in your response, and imply that you're more successful and talented than those that disagree with you. In fact, you all but say that anyone without a "background" which benefits you is useless to you.
My own interaction with you has been similar. You recently posted about your disappointment with your Grand Canyon trip infrared results. I wrote that it was unwise to use materials you hadn't worked with before, especially when you were on location (In fact, you didn't even have the proper filter with you). Your response was that you didn't care how the images came out. I left that discussion wondering why you had posted in the first place.

I have no doubt that you'd like to become a competent film photographer. You haven't been here long, and if you'd like to maintain the good will of members, you need to be less confrontational, especially in the threads you initiate.

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Photo Engineer said:

Oh, I forgot in my last post.

The photo was not very good IMHO.

PE

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sehrgut said:

Not quite that far, but to a degree, you're on track with how I approach my own images. Titles are useful references, after all. However, when the message is not communicated without the title, you've entered the continuum of "text plus image" that goes all the way to "illustrated textbook". Where on that continuum a work is depends on the degree to which communication of its message depends on the accompanying text.

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StoneNYC said:

you chimed in about something totally not helpful...

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StoneNYC said:

haha, I liked the trump comment, really good point, though, he does have billions.. so... lol

still really like the moss

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jnanian said:

i think only ansel adams landscapes should be allowed in the gallery
cause in the end that is the only photography that will be remembered.
nude women/ men, grande still lives, photographs showing the course harsh underbelly of the world
the gore of it all, it will all be forgotten and answell adaams landscapes will be the end.
for more than a generation ... (americans at least) when they see a photograph that isn't 100% in sharp focus
edge to edge, micro contrast out the wazoo well, it really isn't photography, its some photographer trying to make an "artistic statement", and a lame one at that !

i think the gallery should be scoured and only grand landscapes, and no artsy star trail stuff either, that is just a statement ...

the kittens goes too far, unless they are having tea.

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EASmithV said:

View attachment 63146

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StoneNYC said:

Someone once told me... I can't remember, I think it was Donald Trump, but I could be wrong about that, anyway someone once told me "never take advice from someone who isn't already more successful or talented than you" I'm paraphrasing but that was the gist of it.

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eddie said:

See, you keep doing it. You complained about unsatisfactory results, I pointed out how that could have been avoided, but I'm "totally not helpful".

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MattKing said:

Thanks for the comment about the moss.

It is interesting to me, however, that you consider your comments as being "harsh". I have in the past sold my work and during that time it mattered if clients and potential clients liked my work, but in general it doesn't bother me if they don't.

FWIW, I like some of the photos in your APUG gallery (e.g. your subway station shot), but I usually don't get too excited about anything that isn't either a print or a projected transparency - the 2 mega-pixel or less fractions of images on a desktop screen, a dim and poorly projected digital facsimile or, please no, a phone screen tend to leave me unfulfilled.

Admittedly, "she" has an unfair advantage over you. I have had the opportunity of meeting her and have seen her Alternative Process work in person - cyanotypes, gum over arabic, lith and other interesting processes that give depth and colour and texture to prints that a computer screen cannot come close to replicating.

On the subject of Trump, I tend to think poorly of people who have run four separate companies that have used bankruptcy to avoid their debts - especially people with as little humility as Donald Trump apparently has. He tends to be the sort of person who runs companies who leave a whole bunch of smaller creditors (like photographers!) unpaid for their products or services.

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David A. Goldfarb said:

I don't see any censorship issue here. No one has reported your images, and the APUG administration hasn't taken any action on them. If you post images in a public space or publish them or show them in a gallery and are criticized for them, that's just how the world is, and if you respond to criticism by withdrawing those images, that's your decision, not censorship.

On APUG, images are rarely removed for content reasons. I can only recall one specific instance involving a still life of Nazi memorabilia, which may have been illegal in some parts of the world where we have a substantial membership, though the image itself wasn't necessarily advocating for or glorifying Nazism in my opinion. In this case we had to weigh the effect of allowing the image against the possibility that it could put APUG on filtration lists that would make it hard for many of our users to access APUG, and also we considered that the image could be upsetting to some users, even though it was a relatively bland still life. We might have to remove images of child nudity for similar reasons, but I don't think we've ever had a case. I suppose that if we considered an image exploitative of the subject or defamatory, we might remove it, but again, it hasn't come up.

We had a bit of a dust-up once about male nudity, but we let the image stand on the grounds that we allow female nudity, and lost a few members over it.

We do sometimes remove images made from digital originals or scans that involve too much digital manipulation as being off-topic for APUG, but for the most part, subscribers are on the honor system.

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StoneNYC said:

I don't think I feel there is censorship from APUG I feel there is censorship from the membership

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semi-ambivalent said:

It's the sort of artistic-headlock a la Bresson one sees over on [deleted], an otherwise great site.

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StoneNYC said:

I don't think I feel there is censorship from APUG I feel there is censorship from the membership and that's why I wanted to know what the majority thought was the most acceptable imagery. So far the poll results have me feeling better except the "Ansel only" people and I suspect they are mostly kidding except Janana (I'm on my phone and can't check the spelling), but he's always a devils advocate anyway lol.


~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

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David A. Goldfarb said:

Since the membership can't actually remove your images, I would call that "criticism" rather than "censorship."

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