CatLABS X FILM 320 Pro now available in 35mm and 120

[AgX]

Does there need to be a gap in the market to produce a new film? Does it matter if they partnered with someone else to develop the film to their specifications?

Well, some years ago Mirko stated that there was an oversupply of b&w of a certain sensitivity, moreover at extreme low prices thar would prohibit him to join that league. Which means that without a gap, one either needs to be below competitors' prices or to claim some other benefit of that film in a league with others.

The market situation meanwhile changed, but basically not that gap issue.

 

[aparat]

The assumption that you reduce the processing time by 20% for rotation processing is wholly erroneous.

In general, assumptions, playing a central role as part of a critical, seemingly meticulous scientific and empirical study seems somewhat ironic

I am not sure if you're being serious here...

 

[Don_ih]

The assumption that you reduce the processing time by 20% for rotation processing is wholly erroneous.

To be fair, reducing time for continuous agitation is standard, not an assumption. In continuous agitation, there is no opportunity for any part of the film to exhaust the local developer (which will occur in inversion agitation patterns - and obviously in stand or semi-stand).

 

[CatLABS]

...to avoid adding a source of variability to the analysis.

As someone above said unironically, not to nitpick this analysis, but there are an infinite number of uncontrolled and unaccounted for variables in your testing protocol

I am not saying its wrong, just that it might be correct for anyone in any other situation other than yours .
It would seem that the better alternative to ending up with years expired Trix that was never used and then sacrificed at the alter of an experiment that did not even involve the taking of one photo is to go out and take more pictures, on fresh film. If you buy fresh film, you support the industry that makes it. If you dont support it by buying more fresh film it will not stay around for much longer.

 

[CatLABS]

To be fair, reducing time for continuous agitation is standard, not an assumption.

This is true (sometimes), the assumption 20% is the reduction amount is erroneous as apart's test has clearly shown

 

[cramej]

@AgX That's understandable if the product wouldn't be viable in the market at the time. For the current product, I'm sure CatLabs has done sufficient analysis to determine that it can be profitable, product gap notwithstanding. I suppose we'll see if the differentiation is enough to keep it going. One can hope....

 

[aparat]

As someone above said unironically, not to nitpick this analysis, but there are an infinite number of uncontrolled and unaccounted for variables in your testing protocol

I am not saying its wrong, just that it might be correct for anyone in any other situation other than yours .
It would seem that the better alternative to ending up with years expired Trix that was never used and then sacrificed at the alter of an experiment that did not even involve the taking of one photo is to go out and take more pictures, on fresh film. If you buy fresh film, you support the industry that makes it. If you dont support it by buying more fresh film it will not stay around for much longer.

Yes, i wish I had fresh film but I didn't. Sorry about that. Expired film is going to raise B+F and cause some speed loss, mostly. I can send you my Tri-X to see how much it differs from a fresh roll. My bet is, not enough to make a statistically significant difference.

I asked specifically for people to tell me what was wrong with my analysis. I would love for you to provide your own analysis, to compare to mine.

And yes, I did include a photo, a bad one, but it was there.

 

[CatLABS]

I am not sure if you're being serious here...

I am not sure anyone here is

 

[AgX]

The assumption that you reduce the processing time by 20% for rotation processing is wholly erroneous.

In general, assumptions, playing a central role as part of a critical, seemingly meticulous scientific and empirical study seems somewhat ironic

-) aparat said that "typically" processing time at rotary processing is reduced by 15-20%.
This in first instance is a statement, not a assumption as you call it.
Of course you may say that such statement is erroneous, but you may not call its use in a study ironic.


-) Jobo stated that in rotary processing of b&w films "processing times are reduced by 20-30%".
I am surprised that as dedicated Jobo dealer you are seemingly ignorant on this statement. To be fair, Jobo uttered quite some things over time.

 

[aparat]

I am not sure anyone here is

Okay. I get it now. You should have started off with that. It would have saved us a lot of time.

 

[warden]

I am not sure anyone here is

I suggest you overnight @aparat some fresh Tri-X and your recommendations for testing protocol instead of wasting time insulting the participants of this forum. Aparat is engaged in a good faith effort to understand your product, which can help your business. Do you not see this?

FYI adding smilies to insults makes you look like a troll, and I don't do business with trolls.

 

[pentaxuser]

I am not sure anyone here is

Do you really mean anyone? Some of us and I include myself in this have tried to ask serious questions seeking information?

pentaxuser

 

[cmacd123]

EI is "exposure Index" which is a film speed that is recommended, but not perhaps determined by the ISO (formerly ASA) lab tests.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

I am not sure if you're being serious here...

I am not sure anyone here is

Each time I identified a post as the funniest one in this thread I was being serious as a heart attack.

 

[crafmatic]

Each time I identified a post as the funniest one in this thread I was being serious as a heart attack.

Nitroglycerin under the tongue sometimes helps!
I agree this thread is full of funny. I can't imagine people being so hellbent on knowing intricacies of how a film is made before they bother to buy a roll. I hope CatLabs includes a day of the week the film was made and packaged, if it is like buying a car we probably shouldn't buy film made on a Monday or Friday .

 

[mshchem]

Are there really any new black and white films in 2022? It appears that most everything out there is repackaged film from the same small group of surviving manufacturers (Kodak, Ilford/Kentmere, the Orwo/Shanghai/Innoviscoat/Agfa/Adox gestalt, Foma or, on a good day, Ferrannia). Or it's old aerial/surveillance stock from who-knows-where stuffed in a can.

There's obviously nothing wrong with CatLabs (or Film Photography Project) sticking a label on any one of these and selling it at a reasonable price, but it doesn't seem terribly exciting... certainly not exciting enough to warrant 13 pages of comments and counting.

I agree with you on the there's nothing wrong. But I must say I have throughly enjoyed this thread. It's funny!

 

[mshchem]

As someone above said unironically, not to nitpick this analysis, but there are an infinite number of uncontrolled and unaccounted for variables in your testing protocol

I am not saying its wrong, just that it might be correct for anyone in any other situation other than yours .
It would seem that the better alternative to ending up with years expired Trix that was never used and then sacrificed at the alter of an experiment that did not even involve the taking of one photo is to go out and take more pictures, on fresh film. If you buy fresh film, you support the industry that makes it. If you dont support it by buying more fresh film it will not stay around for much longer.

Well said. I use the tables Eastman Kodak developed for XTOL in rotary processing. The time reduction 15%-20% is just a legend.
I don't have any reason to doubt the starting times for this film stated by Catlabs.

The final point IF WE DON'T BUY FILM AND PAPER IT'S NOT GOING TO BE AROUND. This is a huge deal. Paper is more at risk than film in the short term. But look at how quickly things changed with SinoPromise purchase of the Kodak color paper business.
I have a whole lot of frozen film, but I tend to buy new and use film within the expiration date (or nearly)

I love this forum, but there's so much hear say. Use the manufacturers suggested starting times, then adjust if needed. Maybe get a nice thermometer too.

 

[Huss]

I am not sure anyone here is

I will be on Saturday when I receive my film!

 

[brbo]

Well said. I use the tables Eastman Kodak developed for XTOL in rotary processing. The time reduction 15%-20% is just a legend.
I don't have any reason to doubt the starting times for this film stated by Catlabs.

True. I followed another legend (10% reduction) and ended up with overdeveloped film. So I developed with 20% reduction next time.

With all the trolling that Catlabs runs here, it's not clear whether Catlabs thinks that 8min in Jobo is too much or too little. One might get the feeling that they are not here to provide information that some could use, but to shame those who seek information and only want to build support from the opposition to the "old farts with densitometers that don't know how to take a cool film shot". "Cool film shot" = one with every possible technical flaw, of course.

The final point IF WE DON'T BUY FILM AND PAPER IT'S NOT GOING TO BE AROUND. This is a huge deal. Paper is more at risk than film in the short term. But look at how quickly things changed with SinoPromise purchase of the Kodak color paper business.
I have a whole lot of frozen film, but I tend to buy new and use film within the expiration date (or nearly)

Some take this even further. They would only buy film that comes from a real manufacturer, not just some found aerial/surveillance film. Anyway, people will do what they want and I genuinely think that even films like this one can help build a film community that will eventually bring more demand for excellent films from established manufacturers. Those indeed have ability to keep film alive, Catlabs unfortunately doesn't.

I love this forum, but there's so much hear say. Use the manufacturers suggested starting times, then adjust if needed. Maybe get a nice thermometer too.

Thermometer needs to be nice, but for film anything will do?

 

[Agulliver]

I can tell you that ISO get pretty legally minded if anyone puts a product on sale with a claim that it complies to an ISO standard without full documentation to prove it.

Which may be why Catlabs are saying "EI ISO 320" rather than "ISO 320".

 

[AgX]

But ISO is not affected as in such cases not being a legal partner. They might argue though on ISO being their trademark.
Even if a firm refers to a ISO manufacturing-quality standard they got, ISO only indirectly is involved as it is the approving firm whose certificate maybe frauded.

 

[BrianShaw]

A true claim of compliance or conformance to a standard includes the words “Complies with…” or “Conforms to…”. Inferences of compliance, which I believe is @agullivers concern in this type of situation, are things that Philadelphia Lawyers argue. There are really no damages so not much reason for spending time, effort, and money on legal actions. Standardization bodies are largely volunteer organizations and tend to be cash-strapped. Legally they fret more over losing revenue by folks who give away copies of standards, therefore depriving the SDO of the small sales profit.

 

[faberryman]

I hope CatLabs includes a day of the week the film was made and packaged, if it is like buying a car we probably shouldn't buy film made on a Monday or Friday .

There are some cars I wouldn't buy no matter what day of the week they were made. Undoubtedly someone will respond that it is people like me who are responsible for the demise of the car industry.

What's the hurry to buy CatLABS' new film? Any reason not to wait and see what other people say? Do you get a certificate for being the first kid on the block to use it? I didn't use TMax 100 or Delta 100 the first day they came out. Obviously not supporting the film industry again. This all seems like FOMO to me.

 

[faberryman]

I can tell you that ISO get pretty legally minded if anyone puts a product on sale with a claim that it complies to an ISO standard without full documentation to prove it.

Which may be why Catlabs are saying "EI ISO 320" rather than "ISO 320".

Why risk it? Just say IDK 320. Makes more sense than EI ISO 320, particularly when you are recommending that people shoot it at 200.

 

[Oldwino]

EI EI O