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Photo Engineer

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Struan;

Many years ago, an early photographer made a color photo by placing a silver halide glass plate in contact with a pool of mercury which then set up diffraction rings in the coating. By proper illumination, the developed image was able to reproduce the original colors. I am not sure I remember who did it, my memory is faulty on this one, but they reportedly have one at George Eastman House but cannot diiplay or recreate it due to the use of an open pool of mercury. However, I think it should be possible to do by other means.

PE
 

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Struan;

Many years ago, an early photographer made a color photo by placing a silver halide glass plate in contact with a pool of mercury which then set up diffraction rings in the coating. By proper illumination, the developed image was able to reproduce the original colors. I am not sure I remember who did it, my memory is faulty on this one, but they reportedly have one at George Eastman House but cannot diiplay or recreate it due to the use of an open pool of mercury. However, I think it should be possible to do by other means.

PE

Hummm....

Ron,

Are you thinking of Gabriel Lippmann?
The Nobel Prize winning color photographer/physicist?

Gabriel Jonas Lippmann (August 16, 1845 – July 13, 1921)
(according to wiki... which also has a (poor?) example of it!)

I have seen several good examples of his process!

It produces the colors by interferance

(which to me is only vaguely understandable as something similar to a visual doppler effect... uh huh, uh, well anyway)

It can produce strikingly vivid and accurate colors.

It has some followers and wannabes (like myself), but there are servere difficulties with the procedure which keep it from being given the true respect it deserves.

I do believe it's day will come again!

BTW, the images can be viewed rather easily,
and can be also made without the Hg.

There used to be special camera backs sold commercially just for this sort of emulsion.

Ron, is it possible you had something else in mind?

Ray
 
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Photo Engineer

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Interference is the correct word Ray. I was having another senior moment. This is what I had in mind, but GEH has some and they do not show them as they cannot use mercury. So, if you can suggest another method, this will do much of what Struan has posted.

PE
 

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One of the tough things about the subject is that theoretical descriptions are full of assumptions and simplifications, just to make the problem tractable. On the other hand, it leaves plenty of room for experimental discoveries. :smile:

...it's intriguing enough that I have started to assemble filters and film for some initial tests. The work gets shunted onto the back burner all too often though, so I'd love to hear of anything anyone else tries.

Struan;

Yes.

It is very interesting!

Things behave sort of strange when very small!*

I think I will pull out my notes from what I read last year and see if you can make any sense out of them for me!

While different from what you described, let me just mention that if anyone reading this happens to know what happened to, or the whereabouts of a Joseph Boudreau, I would still like to contact him.

Joseph Boudreau had doing some work with Color Daguerrotypes the last I heard, but it seems he moved or something.....

Ray

*
Did they bend Laser Light?:

Have you seen or read about how laser light can be bent as it travells through a special (< 1nm) nanotech plastic? I just caught a glimse, but it looked like they digitized the analog curve so that laser light can be made to appear to bend.
 

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Interference is the correct word Ray. I was having another senior moment. This is what I had in mind, but GEH has some and they do not show them as they cannot use mercury. So, if you can suggest another method, this will do much of what Struan has posted.

PE

Considering Struan's field, I would imagine he is aware of Lippmann's work, but perhaps not.

Martin, who also posts here occassionaly, can fill us in on more about Lippmann Photography, including the current status of a list devoted to it.

Ron - Don't worry about that little 'moment'... I was about to scream EUREKA! when, while reading Herschel's hand written notes, it became obvious that Herschel had observed and described the beautiful and amazing vivid colors that could be produced by interferance... He wrote:

" For a remarkable production of color by diffraction see [...]
This is an most singular phenonomon "

I was thinking he had beaten Lippmann by decades... that was untill I said to myself: "NO! No way people could have missed such an important thing!" It took a few minutes but eventually I saw "diffraction" where once that "interference" had been so crystal clear!

Hummm...

OK, well now I am confused myself... again!

Two works:

Improvements in the Diffraction Process of Color Photography
Herbert E. Ives
(1906)
-----------------------------------------
Three-color Interference Pictures
Herbert E. Ives
(1907)

I think Martin could straighten this out...

Perhaps you are not as old as you think!

Ray
 
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Hologram

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Colloidal silver can be almost any spectral colour. By varying the size and shape of a silver nanoparticle you can adjust the peak of it's reflectance right across the visible spectrum. It's a hot topic in current nanoscience.

Silver concentration may be another thing to consider. E.g. a dry gelatin layer with colloidal silver may appear red, whereas the same layer, wet, may be yellow.
 

Hologram

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Considering Struan's field, I would imagine he is aware of Lippmann's work, but perhaps not.

Martin, who also posts here occassionaly, can fill us in on more about Lippmann Photography, including the current status of a list devoted to it.

Ron - Don't worry about that little 'moment'... I was about to scream EUREKA! when, while reading Herschel's hand written notes, it became obvious that Herschel had observed and described the beautiful and amazing vivid colors that could be produced by interferance... He wrote:

" For a remarkable production of color by diffraction see [...]
This is an most singular phenonomon "

I was thinking he had beaten Lippmann by decades... that was untill I said to
myself: "NO! No way people could have missed such an important thing!" It took a few minutes but eventually I saw "diffraction" where once that "interference" had been so crystal clear!

Hummm...

OK, well now I am confused myself... again!

Two works:

Improvements in the Diffraction Process of Color Photography
Herbert E. Ives
(1906)
-----------------------------------------
Three-color Interference Pictures
Herbert E. Ives
(1907)

I think Martin could straighten this out...

Perhaps you are not as old as you think!

Ray

There is a forum on Lippmann photography at http://holographyforum.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=14&sid=d4d8bac3e4339dbf5ae83dbd44457e34

We tried to put together a collection of classic papers related to Lippmann photography - see:
www.holowiki.com/index.php/Lippmann_Papers (that site is temporarily down but principally I can send you any of these papers - just give me a PM). Most of these papers are written in French and German (probably for some historic reasons the English speaking world seemed to have ignored Lippmann photography to a large extent).
 

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Alright, then. It's decided. If I ever completely lose my mind and decide I need to make colloidal silver myself, it will be with a hand cranked centrifuge!

:smile: Actually...you know...if I set things up right, when we lose power here in the winter for days at a time, I could still make emulsions. Bunsen burner, hand whisk, gaslight. Just kidding (I think).

There might be easier ways of making colloidal silver. For example, adding a small amount of a reducing agent to a AgNO3/gelatin solution does form colloidal silver. A simple way of doing this is adding ascorbic acid to the above solution. The size of the silver particles depend on different parameters: silver/gelatin/reducer concentration, temperature, time...
 

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Silver concentration may be another thing to consider. E.g. a dry gelatin layer with colloidal silver may appear red, whereas the same layer, wet, may be yellow.

Yes. I am not sure if it is due to dilution or solvation or both, or hallucination, but I do see color changes as (non-lippmann) emulsions are diluted.

Struan mentions this when he writes "once the nanoparticles get within a few diameters of each other their optical fields interact and you get a... colour shift...I'm intrigued by the idea that Bensley has made an all-silver image display colours not so much by tuning the size or shape of the silver grains, but by varying the spacing of the silver grains resulting from the second development."

Perhaps someone could devise a color photographic system based entirely on dilution and or swell?
 
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Photo Engineer

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In suspensions of fine particles, if you stir them, you often see what appears to be swirls in a moire pattern of colors. This is presumably due to the effect Struan mentions. We see this sometimes in chemical preparations when an ultra fine precipitate is present.

PE
 

Kirk Keyes

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while reading Herschel's hand written notes[...]

I was thinking he had beaten Lippmann by decades... that was untill I said to myself: "NO! No way people could have missed such an important thing!"

Herschel did discover the fixing properties of thiosulfate which went un-noticed for about two decades.

Sir John Herschel was an amazing person. Although that's not too surprising, considering who his father was, Sir William Herschel who discovered the planet Uranus, and his aunt Caroline Herschel, who devoted her life to assisting John's father in his observations, and rightly discovered several comets on her own.
 

Kirk Keyes

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Ray - re google books.

Are you in Japan? What browser are you using?

Your browser issue reminds me of when I was in Mexico a few months ago. Google refused to let me see the regular www.google.com and forced me to www.google.mx.

I really like google books - it's got some pretty interesting stuff there. Especially historical stuff. I can see the entire page, and even download the books that have the links I gave. They have some stuff that have "snippet views" which just annoy me as they obviously have the entire text scanned in but they are trying to avoid copyright infringement by not showing you more than a line or two of the text.

But there's a lot of interesting stuff there and I suggest you keep trying t find a way to get it to work. I've bought several books that I've seen either the full text or bits of it on google books.
 

Ray Rogers

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Herschel did discover the fixing properties of thiosulfate which went un-noticed for about two decades.

Sir John Herschel was an amazing person. Although that's not too surprising, considering who his father was, Sir William Herschel who discovered the planet Uranus, and his aunt Caroline Herschel, who devoted her life to assisting John's father in his observations, and rightly discovered several comets on her own.

Yes.

I tried to follow the hint but the meaning of some code numbers need follow up to confirm exactly what Herschel was referring to... I will have to open up that folder and finish following the lead.

I agree- He was amazing... I have a lemon soda formula of his I am dying (from the thirst of curiosity) to try!
 

Ray Rogers

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Ray - re google books.

Are you in Japan? What browser are you using?

Your browser issue reminds me of when I was in Mexico a few months ago. Google refused to let me see the regular www.google.com and forced me to www.google.mx.

They have some stuff that have "snippet views" which just annoy me as they obviously have the entire text scanned in but they are trying to avoid copyright infringement by not showing you more than a line or two of the text.
QUOTE]

Yes.

I guess the same thing is happening to me.
It seems the site decides to make you use the local (google?) system...
I can use either google, but the using the link I found only confusing semi related sentences, and honestly, I got so frustrated with- you guessed it those "snippit" strips of torn pages I lost the will to hunt... and have already forgotten what it was exactly.

Perhaps if I look again I will find a way out, but I am not hopeful.

I will try again someday, after I recharge.

Ray
 

Struan Gray

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I am sorry for my relative silence: I've been whooping it up in Legoland :smile:

Colour is a big topic, but it is important to realise that there is a fundamental difference between interference colours such as those found in Lippmann emulsions and thin films, and the colours of colloidal silver which are related to excitations of the electrons in the silver particles, and are thus more like the colours of pigments or dyes.

Interference colours can be very intense and pure, but they generally only work over a limited range of angles. Exceptions exist which work over wider angles - the canonical example is the pure blue of the Morpho butterfly wing - but as I understand it Lippmann emulsions only display their correct colours when viewed head-on.

I think holographic emulsions are today's direct descendents of Lippmann's work: they perform a similar task of preserving interference fringes in the thickness of the emulsion by laying down correctly spaced lamellea of silver.

In metallic materials where the electrons are free to move you can create compression waves in the sea of free electrons which are analgous to sound waves in a gas. These are the so-called 'plasmons' which crop up as buzzwords in any modern discussion of the optical properties of small metallic structures. Because the wave changes the local charge density, it has an associated electromagnetic field, and in the right circumstances you can couple that field to the freely propagating plane waves of which light is made.

It is these plasmon modes which give colloidal silver its colour. Other metals work too: gold for example turns red and then a gorgeous deep blue as you make smaller and smaller particles. Most experiments are done on noble metals because the large surface area to volume ratio of the particles makes them very susceptible to corrosion and oxidation, but in principle aluminium and iron will display similar effects.

The plasmon frequencies are acutely sensitive to the particle's size, shape and local environment. As I said in my earlier post, nearby particles can radically change the way that a particular particle scatters light, but the properties of the surrounding medium can have a similarly dramatic effect: changes in its refractive index or its pH will often lead to changes in colour.

This sensitivity is one reason for the widespread interest in applications of plasmonic structures. For example, you can already buy blood sensors where the binding of a protein to a gold film changes the plasmon frequency and alerts a monitoring circuit. It is also the reason that plasmonics seems to promise a tempting wide-tunability across the optical spectrum.

The problem for photographic applications is that the same sensitivity makes the colour production unreliable, especially with conventional home darkroom levels of control and repeatability. If time, temperature, humidity, and chemical concentations have to be controlled to 0.001% then this isn't a practical photographic technique, even if the same science ends up being used industrially to make sensors or the next generation of LEDs.

There are of course other mechanisms to make nanostructures more coloured than their bulk analogues. Mie scattering can be highly wavelength and orientation dependent, and the absorbtion that turns large chunks of material grey does not have a chance to work in small systems. Nanowires made from semiconductors show the most beautiful colourations, even in the absence of interference or plasmon effects.

I should stress that I am not a real plasmonics expert, although I do work with a few, and I have very little relevant experience of the photographic aspects of these phenomena. I very much welcome further discussion, and the valuable practical input from those who have actually got their hands dirty in a real way.

Final point: the early colour I was thinking of was bare AgCl on a paper support, as used by spectroscopists to investigate projected solar and other spectra by measuring the pyrolitic or photolitic darkening of the halide when exposed to a spectrum from a prism. Herschel reports on some of these colours in his huge catch-all paper in the Royal Society's Phil. Trans. from 1840 (the same paper where he reports the use of "hyposulphites" as a fixer), but I am sure many other early workers noticed and commented upon them. These are unlikely to be caused by an interference effect, and are most likely plasmonic colours.


Struan
 
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Google Books tries to apply the copyright laws of your location to limit what you can see. In the US you can see anything published before 1923 (as some wag suggested, the definition of the public domain in US copyright law may be connected to the corporate interests of Disney, and the fact Mickey Mouse was invented in 1928). In Australia, where I am, you should be able to see anything published before 1955, provided the author also died before 1955. Unfortunately, however, Google isn't clever enough to realize that Carey Lea died in 1897, and as a result they seem to apply some sort of more restrictive limit, which means I have never seen more than a snippet of anything after about 1870. This means I also can't see Kirk's Google Book references, for reasons probably similar to what Ray is experiencing in Japan.

Google Patents doesn't seem to have any of the same restrictions and is very useful, especially for the PDFs of tables that some of the other patent sites which seem to scramble. The patent David Goldfarb referred to earlier, which connects what seems to be Polaroid Type 55 with Panatomic-X or a similar emulsion is accessible, if you go to http://www.google.com/patents and search for US Patent 3345166.

My interest in colloidal silver for diffusion transfer receiver physical development nuclei was mainly as a safer option to heavy metals like lead sulfide. However for all the experimenting I'm likely to do it sounds like it's easier just to use fixed out paper or film. Land reproduced examples using plain paper in his Pioneers of Photography article, but I couldn't get it to work.

However, colloidal silver might also be useful for a monobath derived from Barnes and Johnston's US patent 3392019 for "viscous silver halide photographic monobath solutions". They say "Although the particle size is not particularly important to the operation of our monobath, the particles preferably have a average diameter of 7-2,500 A." With only 0.2g Carey Lea silver, their Example 6 formula reduces the thiosulfate to only 25g/liter to develop a low speed fine grain chlorobromide emulsion at 125 degrees F in 15 seconds. Whether something similar is possible without their preferred amine is difficult to say. I didn't really understand the comparisons they make in the patent between different amines and sodium hydroxide and sodium carbonate.

I managed to find what appears to be the dextrine method of making Carey Lea silver from J.W. Mellor, A Comprehensive Treatise on Inorganic and Theoretical Chemistry, 1923, v.3, p.561: "40 grms. of sodium hydroxide and the same amount of ordinary brown dextrine are dissolved in 2 litres of water, and a soln. of 28 grms. of silver nitrate in a little water is gradually added. The resulting liquid is clear and black, although it contains less than one per cent. of silver. On dilution, the soln. becomes red, and with further dilution, it forms a yellow solution."

Perhaps following this you can make some sort of stock solution which could go straight into a monobath formula without any need for a centrifuge.

Following on from Struan's comments about color, and the collodidal size of noble metals, Mike Ware's work on the new chrysotype process might be of interest.

Sorry to be dropping in and out of this discussion. I haven't had time to do any more experimenting but was wondering about using photographic paper rather than film for the diffusion transfer. This would at least allow you to work a bit more comfortably in the darkroom. The dark red safelight I have for ortho film is very dim, and there is no way I'd want to try panchro materials in full darkness without some device like the rails Photo Engineer mentioned.

Thanks too for your comments about contact for the diffusion transfer sandwich. I didn't realize this was yet another variable, but it makes sense. I had some images that were nearly a neutral gray, brick red, and even a purple. Colloidal silver can be an interesting material!
 

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ON google and non-US locations? COuld you guys try one of those "anonymizer" free-web proxy sites like www.anonymizer.com and see if that works?
 

Kirk Keyes

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Yeah - google tries not to let you see anything your local government doesn't want you to see. Like you'll never see a photo of the guy standing in front of the tank in Tiennamen (sp?) Square while you are in China through google... I understand why the do it, but it just seems wrong somehow...
 

Ray Rogers

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Truth and Knowledge

Yeah - google tries not to let you see anything your local government doesn't want you to see. Like you'll never see a photo of the guy standing in front of the tank in Tiennamen (sp?) Square while you are in China through google... I understand why the[y] do it, but it just seems wrong somehow...

Knowledge and Truth are like anything of immense value -
They Know No Freedom!

Ray Rogers
 

Hologram

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Interference colours can be very intense and pure, but they generally only work over a limited range of angles. Exceptions exist which work over wider angles - the canonical example is the pure blue of the Morpho butterfly wing - but as I understand it Lippmann emulsions only display their correct colours when viewed head-on.

Yes, Lippmann photos can be viewed over a very narrow angle only.
Reflection holograms in contrast may have huge (~180°) viewing angles. Depending on the recording material bandwidth of these „interference colors“ may vary from very narrow (< 1nm) to very broad (> 200nm).

Final point: the early colour I was thinking of was bare AgCl on a paper support, as used by spectroscopists to investigate projected solar and other spectra by measuring the pyrolitic or photolitic darkening of the halide when exposed to a spectrum from a prism. Herschel reports on some of these colours in his huge catch-all paper in the Royal Society's Phil. Trans. from 1840 (the same paper where he reports the use of "hyposulphites" as a fixer), but I am sure many other early workers noticed and commented upon them. These are unlikely to be caused by an interference effect, and are most likely plasmonic colours.

That might be an interesting explanation to that old problem of natural color photography. I am referring to the discoveries/observations by Seebeck, Niepce, Herschel, Talbot, Becquerel, Poitevin, Zenker, Lippmann, Valenta...
 

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More information on making colloidal silver after some reading of notes and etc.

Here are the steps in making colloidal silver (photograde)

1. Add alkali solution (NaOH) to silver nitrate or vice versa depending on the type of Silver Hydroxide you wish to form.

2. Wash well to remove as much alkali as possible.

3. Disperse the AgOH in water + gelatin mixing completely. Adjust pH according to the needs in step #4.

4. Add a mild reducing agent such as Dextrin, Ascorbic acid, or Stannous Chloride.

5. Wash to remove all trace of reducing agent and test to make sure there is no Silver Hydroxide remaining. (CRITICAL STEP)

Selection of addition order, concentrations and type of reducing agent will influence the color of the colloid as described above. Washing after the first step is usually done on the "mud" using a centrifuge or centrifugal spiral filtrator. These are very expensive but are usually used industrially instead of the typical spinning centrifuge.

I hope this gives more information. The specific formulas are so wide in variety that one formula will not suffice for all. I only have formulas for 2 of them. None can be applied to B&W photography.

PE
 
OP
OP
dwross

dwross

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We can always try. To that goal, I'll start a new thread. I hope I'm not the only one. It would be fun and satisfying to have a number of good discussions going at once. Maybe we can attract back the good heads among us. Kirk Keyes, where are you?
 
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