Carbon transfer: preventing light scatter in tissue with light pigments

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koraks

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When I was dabbling with the gum bichromate process last year I read quite a few very helpful posts from you

Really? Aw thanks, but aren't you confusing me with someone else? I haven't written all that much on gum bichromate, nor have I made many gum prints myself (let alone any good ones...) I'm sure I expressed my opinion on it several times, though...:wink:

Yes, Kremer, I'm very kuch aware of them and actually was on the virge of ordering some stuff from them, but I decided I wanted to give my local options a try first. Besides, as remarked earlier by others, grinding my own pigments into a paste is going to be a heck of a job to begin with. And Kremer doesn't carry ready made the pastes I would need.

@AgX I'll check out Schmincke, thanks! Never heard of them, so that's definitely a blind spot on my side.
 

AgX

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@AgX I'll check out Schmincke, thanks! Never heard of them, so that's definitely a blind spot on my side.

Yes, as Schmincke was THE west-german brand for artists' and graphic designers' paints.
 

Sean Mac

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Really? Aw thanks, but aren't you confusing me with someone else? I haven't written all that much on gum bichromate, nor have I made many gum prints myself (let alone any good ones...) I'm sure I expressed my opinion on it several times, though...:wink:

Yes, Kremer, I'm very kuch aware of them and actually was on the virge of ordering some stuff from them, but I decided I wanted to give my local options a try first. Besides, as remarked earlier by others, grinding my own pigments into a paste is going to be a heck of a job to begin with. And Kremer doesn't carry ready made the pastes I would need.

@AgX I'll check out Schmincke, thanks! Never heard of them, so that's definitely a blind spot on my side.

You saved me a trip down the rabbithole with your opinion on the superiority of real in camera negatives over the inkjet kind.

Schminke watercolour paint is lovely in my experience......

🙂
 

BrianShaw

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Many of my carbon prints for a world heritage designation show of abandoned coal mines in Omuta, Japan, were made from coal from those mines.

Pardon the expansion on a side topic; this is very interesting!

Bituminous or anthracite? How did you grind it fine enough and manage grit consistency?
 

Andrew O'Neill

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Pardon the expansion on a side topic; this is very interesting!

Bituminous or anthracite? How did you grind it fine enough and manage grit consistency?

Coal in Japan is bituminous, used mainly for energy. There was a company that ground it and filtered it for me. The company boss did it as a favour for me, as I taught his staff English for many years. His company produced synthetic filters, and grinding machines, for food grains to rock. It was grittier than if charcoal powder was used (I've used it, as well as graphite) You could feel this if you moved your finger across the print. The worst thing about this coal was it was really oily (like graphite). I had to do a lot of filtering, and skimming. But no matter how much I did, there was always a bit of an oil slick pattern on the top of my tissues. If there were any areas of large tone in the image, it would surely show a swirly pattern...Like in the sky, etc. Those types images were avoided. I think the visitors to the gallery were more amazed with the fact that prints could be made from coal than my actual work 😆 I still have a small bag of the ground up coal. If I ever have another show over there, I might make a few prints with it...
 

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That's the risk with carbon printing. I get a lot of "Wow! Look at the relief!", while I am thinking to myself with a bit of a chuckle, "How about the image?"

I made a few carbons this morning. Sensitized a tissue last night before bed, got up at 6am, cut up the tissue, and started my exposures (three 4x5 carbon prints -- two-hour exposure), and went back to bed. Woke up, made tea, transferred those three tissues, got another three tissues exposing (a 90 minute, and two 60-minute exposures), and had breakfast. Nice start of the day. Finished up before it got too hot (no A/C and hot lights -- tho it cooled down greatly from our high of 80F). Had lunch and time to enjoy some Scotch in the backyard...perhaps a snack.

Learn a new thing this morning -- if one accidentally get water up the measuring end of ones infra-red thermometer, it can read 10 to 15 degrees cool. Lost part of a couple images to frilling. They did not like being put into 130 to 135F water! Especially once separated from the tissue support. I know what 125F feels like -- it is about my hand limit to heat. Got out the trusty Kodak glass thermometer and checked. got the water drops off the infrared thermometer and its fine again (close enough, anyway...but 10F was a bit much!)
 
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koraks

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I've been making progress on this end, with baby steps at a time, but many baby steps do make big strides if you add them all up. At least, that's what I hope. In the end. Eventually...

For now, there's this:
20220913_1319181.jpg

Alright, it's not particularly good yet, but it's at least something with colors in it, and it's carbon transfer. More info on it on my blog here: https://tinker.koraks.nl/photography/first-light-at-the-end-of-a-particularly-long-tunnel/

But at least something is happening, even though this initial result mostly serves to show the massive hurdles ahead.
 

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You are nuts, koraks...but that is what it takes to go crazy on full-colour carbon. Enjoyed your blog!

I goggled watercolor vs gouache, as I have wondered about this before. I found this interesting:

The opacity of gouache comes from the white pigment or chalk that is added along with the colored pigment and binder in order to make it less transparent.

I agree that once thinned out, there may be little difference. But I suspect that if chalk is used, there might be a slight difference in surface gloss of the prints depending on watercolor or gouache (or the percentage mixture of the two.)

PS...a fellow I knew who did multiple layer B&W carbons and had an issue with the different glosses of his various layers, caused by the differences in the pigments (and pigment types used. Something that can be worked into the image, but it can also be distracting.
 
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koraks

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You are nuts, koraks.

I'm glad we agree on this.
Thanks for the kind words :smile:

Interesting note about the gouache and the white pigment or chalk. Coincidentally I was doing some tinting strength tests this evening and how dilute solutions (dispersions, more accurately) of the gouache paints look matched what you wrote perfectly. They have a milky appearance. It doesn't seem to affect the transparency of the tissue much; it seems that the transparency of the pigment itself is a stronger determinant.

However, I do think I'm going to stick to watercolors instead. Particularly the Winsor & Newton I tried seems to have pretty pure hues, good dispersion quality, high tinting strength and not a lot of unnecessary muck in them.

Your note does make me wonder about the gloss; I'm going to look out for any noticeable difference in this respect between the gouache and the watercolor tissues (and particularly the prints from them).
 

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I find some of the inks used (BlackCat, for example) have a much higher gloss than my watercolors. The watercolors give me a gloss I find compatible with the glossy fiber papers I use as final support.

I have two batches of glop in the warming bath -- they'll sit over night and I'll pour in the morning.
Each batch is 750 ml water, 60 gr sugar, 90 gr food-grade gelatin and pigmant. These batches got 5.0 gr lampblack, 0.9 gr Burnt Sienna, and for fun, since I was photographing along Redwood Creek for the images, 0.1 gram of Quinacridone Red.

My first carbon prints were heavy on the lampblack -- 20 to 25 grams. Nice prints, no relief, but with that much lampblack (Grumbachers Acedemy Grade), the light did seem to reflect back through the gelatin slightly differently than my lower pigment concentrations. Inner reflections within the gelatin, it seemed like.
 
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koraks

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So far, I haven't seen much difference in gloss, but that probably has to do with the fact that I virtually exclusively use etching papers as a final support. I generally use Schut Laurier, which is a pure-white, 300gsm paper with a surface that's somewhat coarse/fibrous but not with the kind of texture you often find on watercolor papers. I size this with gelatin, fairly heavily as well, at around 25g dry gelatin per square meter (this translates to ca. 5% gelatin solution poured to a height of around 1mm). Hardening I generally do with chrome alum added directly to the sizing solution because the paper is ready to use as soon as it's dry.

I've transferred to other kinds of papers as well; lately for testing purposes sometimes to Yupo and in the past occasionally to RC paper. I never use fiber paper because I don't have a reliable supply of expired FB of the same type and size, and fresh paper I prefer to use for its intended purpose :smile: I don't care for carbon transfers to 'high-tech' surfaces like Yupo and RC paper one bit. For me, it takes away pretty much the entire reason for alt. process printing, which is the possibility to use papers (and other surfaces) normally not accessible for (analog) photography.

In any case, where this is going is the observation that the more heavily sized the surface, the more critical the surface quality of the tissue becomes, I think. On the papers I size myself, there just isn't much difference between the paints or pigments I use in terms of surface sheen, because the influence of the paper texture and sizing are dominant. With FB papers, this would already be a different story and with stuff like Yupo it's a totally different universe altogether. But to be frank, I really like the semi-matte/eggshell sheen that the Laurier paper gives me. It's really a very nice optimum between a 'natural' paper texture with its inherent fibrousness and the extremely high resolution and detail that a smoother (hot pressed, heavily calendered or even polymer) surface gives.

I really do understand the attention you spend on this. For me, surface finish is one of the most critical aspects of print quality. It's also one of those things that people accustomed to inkjet prints for the most part simply aren't aware of to begin with (the same goes BTW to people who only print on RC papers). But it's such an exciting aspect! It really makes the difference between a technically good print and a beautiful one.

PS: concerning inks, and black in particular - black is just such a challenging thing to get right. I think I've said before that I'm not too fond of being stuck with warm blacks such as lamp black, ivory black etc. But fact of the matter is that only these blacks tend to disperse well in an aqueous solution. The most accessible alternative of a more neutral hue is iron oxide black (PBk11), which is a popular pigment in all kinds of paint, for instance Winsor & Newton's 'Mars black' watercolor and gouache paints. But the problem is that iron oxide tends to drop out of solution, which is a major concern if you have a jar of glop outgassing for a couple of hours (or overnight, as you've been doing). Also, it's magnetic, which I became painfully aware of when I tried using a magnetic stirrer once to effectively disperse an iron oxide pigment in a watery solution; all the pigment ended up stuck magnetically as two soft balls to both ends of the stirrer bar!

Just now, I was doing a little tinting strength test with Winsor & Newton Mars black (iron oxide) watercolor vs. Talens India ink (lampblack, most likely, in any case a fine carbon black):

20220914_0744341.jpg

Winsor & Newton iron oxide black to the left, Talens India ink carbon black to the right.
Note the difference in hue; the iron oxide is near-neutral, the carbon is very warm.
Also note tinting strength; the jar to the left had 20 drops of a 1% solution added to 20ml of water, the jar to the right only 8 drops! I think it's mostly due to the much finer particle size that the tinting strength of the carbon black is dramatically higher.

The matter of black concerns me at the moment, because I'm kind of stuck with carbon black for the key layer in my color assemblies for now, but I really think it's far too warm toned for this. Effectively it creates crossover this way, which will be noticeable (warm shadows). I might just have to deal with the iron oxide's propensity towards settling at the bottom of the jar and stir frequently as the glop is outgassing. Such are the woes, eh?
 

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Interesting...Grahms Lampblack watercolors is a neutral black -- as cool as the iron oxide example above.
 
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koraks

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Yes, that certainly is interesting. I looked it up and Graham's list only PBk6 as the single pigment in there. According to the page @Sean Mac pointed me to, it seems that several manufacturers use PBk6 together with other pigments (e.g. blues and reds) to obtain a more neutral black hue: https://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/waterw.html
I wonder if grinding/particle size has something to do with it. If I were to hazard a guess, perhaps Graham's contains a coarser grind; I wouldn't be surprised if carbon particles will be more colorful as they are ground finer, similar to silver nanoparticles.
Either way, I may now have to go out and see if I can get some Graham's...
 

Sean Mac

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Carbon pigment is usually made by burning hydrocarbons with a deficit of oxygen so the carbon is effectively on the molecular level. The chemists have a lot of control over the particle size.

According to the page @Sean Mac pointed me to, it seems that several manufacturers use PBk6 together with other pigments (e.g. blues and reds) to obtain a more neutral black hue: https://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/waterw.html

If I was mixing paint I would add Pthalo Blue. It is a very powerful mixing pigment and the green shade is a very cool blue, Cobalt is a cool hue but it's expensive and ultramarine is maybe too warm and might tend towards purple.
 

Vaughn

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Grahams is a company near Portland, Oregon. Do not know their international footprint. I need to buy a bunch of tubes...I'd hate to have to go through a pigment search at this point. Both the Burnt Sienna and Burnt Umber seem to contain iron oxide, so I am totally confused. These two and their lampblack are non-staining according to one chart, and tend towards granulation (usually due to larger particle size). Fortunately, not a visual issue with my prints.

I started out using the cheaper Grumbacher's Academy watercolors...and they also were neutral. I mixed in drops of Sumi Ink to try to warm it up a little.

I bought a couple big tubes of Senneleir Llamblack and I could not use them -- they were closer to what Grahms sells as Ivory Black...a rather weak brownish black.

Sean Mac (and/or others) -- I have been using Burnt Sienna or Burnt Umber to warm up the Grahams Lampblack. Is there a 'better' choice?
 
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Andrew O'Neill

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Is anyone using Daniel Smith? I've been using them for a few years now (for both carbon and gum). Quite like them. I've used Lamp Black, Burnt Umber, and Venetian Red mainly for carbon. I also like Speedball India Ink. When I started carbon printing, I was using Cotman Lamp black. It always seemed to get streaky patterns on the tissue, though. I never see this with Daniel Smith. More money, but no streaky. 🙂
 

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I googled watercolor vs gouache, as I have wondered about this before. I found this interesting:

The opacity of gouache comes from the white pigment or chalk that is added along with the colored pigment and binder in order to make it less transparent.

I agree that once thinned out, there may be little difference. But I suspect that if chalk is used, there might be a slight difference in surface gloss of the prints depending on watercolor or gouache (or the percentage mixture of the two.)

Also in practise there is a not a strict division between watercolour (aquarell) and gouache.
At that german manufacturer for instance the gouaches indeed are are opaque ore semiopaque, but at their watercolors there is the full range from transparent to opaque.
 
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koraks

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Both the Burnt Sienna and Burnt Umber seem to contain iron oxide, so I am totally confused.

Don't be! Iron oxide comes in two main forms: black and red iron oxide (rust!). I haven't looked it up, but I bet your burnt sienna and umber contain red iron oxide together with a yellow pigment and probably something greenish as well.

I have been using Burnt Sienna or Burnt Umber to warm up the Grahams Lampblack. Is there a 'better' choice?

If it looks good, it's good, isn't it?
When I shift the tone of a black glop, I generally simply add a primary; a red, a blue or a yellow. I don't think that's better; it's just a different approach.
Of course much depends on issues like longevity - how important is this to you, and what is the lightfastness of the pigments you're adding to the black (which in itself is perfectly stable)? However, I wouldn't worry too much about this as most popular watercolors these days are pretty stable colors. When in doubt, check the pigments used in the paints you use for their lightfastness rating; several sources are available for this, the paint manufacturer being the first obvious one.

Is anyone using Daniel Smith?

No...but all this talk almost makes me want to do a comparison! Almost...because boy, would that be a lot of work :smile:
It always seemed to get streaky patterns on the tissue, though.

I get these when using acrylics; I've used Amsterdam / Talens acrylic paint quite a bit and it contains something that makes these swirls as well. I never saw them in the prints I made with those tissues.

At that german manufacturer for instance the gouaches indeed are are opaque ore semiopaque, but at their watercolors there is the full range from transparent to opaque.

I think there's two things hiding behind the opacity rating here: the opacity of the pigment itself, and the opacity of the medium. So I would wonder if a gouache and a watercolor from this same manufacturer with the same opacity rating (let's say semi-opaque) would in fact be of the same opacity. I'm almost certain they wouldn't, because the gouache will have a more opaque medium to begin with. To what extent it matters in a carbon tissue, I don't know; in this application the paint is diluted so far that I doubt the opacity of the gouache medium still matters much. It should still make a measurable difference, you'd say. I do notice that the cyan glop I made the other day was somewhat milky, whereas my magenta and yellow were pretty much clear; the cyan is the only one that I used a gouache for. When poured as a tissue, it looks pretty translucent as it's spread out so thin. In a next iteration I'm going to replace this cyan with a watercolor as well; let's see if that makes a difference.
 

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I think there's two things hiding behind the opacity rating here: the opacity of the pigment itself, and the opacity of the medium. So I would wonder if a gouache and a watercolor from this same manufacturer with the same opacity rating (let's say semi-opaque) would in fact be of the same opacity.

I wondered about this too, as in the end one may question what the differences between their opaque gouache and aquarell paints are.
 

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However, I do think I'm going to stick to watercolors instead. Particularly the Winsor & Newton I tried seems to have pretty pure hues, good dispersion quality, high tinting strength and not a lot of unnecessary muck in them.
Curious to know what W&N watercolors you are using / intend to use as your primaries.
 
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koraks

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I'm planning to do a writeup on exactly this, @gmikol, but I'll give you the scoop. This is the colorset I'm planning to use:
* Magenta: Winsor & Newton Quinacridone magenta (pigment PR122)
* Yellow: W&N Winsor Yellow (pigment PY154)
* Cyan: W&N Winsor Blue Green Shade (pigment PB15:3)
All three are watercolors.

Currently I have some tissues made with a W&N gouache 'primary blue' instead of the intended cyan (pigment is PB15 but don't know the other specifics as W&N don't list it) and with W&N transparent yellow watercolor (pigment PY150). I don't think this present set is ideal as the PY150 has lower chroma than the PY154 and I think the PB15 I'm currently using has too high a hue angle (it's too blue, I suspect).

As said I'm planning to do a writeup on this in which I explain how I arrive at the above pigment selection, which (not so coincidentally) matches the one that Calvin Grier uses. I already knew his pigment set (at least in general terms) and I think I can argue pretty well why from a color theory perspective this set is a usable compromise.
 

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My hint at Schmincke was due to the fact that they offer explicitely primaries. And this since decades. But just now I realize that Windsor&Newton do so too. But seemingly you did not use those.
 
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