Canonet QL17 horizontal scratches

[Tomro]

Couple years ago I got a Canonet QL17 among other cameras. I shot 2 rolls back then, enjoyed it quite a bit, but I don’t do 35mm that much.
Anyway, I always got horizontal scratches on the negatives, and last week I tried again 2 rolls with the same result: scratches.
On flickr, I found an 20y old thread where someone had a similar problem with the canonet scratching the negatives. But the thread is so old that the photograph that should show a possible fix is gone (also no luck via archive.org).
Inside the camera, on the right side of the pressure plate, there is this “auto-loading” mechanism, and at the hinge of it there is a small beam with some tiny rolls of some kind, and I think the scratches originate from there.
one can see it in the attached image.
Maybe some of you has the same Canonet: are those tiny rolls always without any tape or cover? And if so, can anyone offer a solution to fix these scratches?
I like the unobtrusiveness of the Canonet, so I‘d really like to be able to use it.
TIA

 

[koraks]

Is there a possibility of showing some examples of the scratches you're getting? This may rule out one or two things.

 

[Tomro]

here are two frames. Ignore the heavy over development. I got 28° in my darkroom and because it was supposed to only be a test I didn't bother.
you can see several scratches in the middle of the frame, film winding direction.

 

[reddesert]

I have had Canonets for many years, and no significant problem with scratches. It's not intrinsic to the design; and there are other Canon cameras (including SLRs) with a similar QL quickload mechanism.

Your QL mechanism looks normal. The parts circled in the picture are the spring-loaded hinge of the QL plate. I don't think they actually touch the film when in use. They look ok, there should not be tape or a cover on them (These don't actually roll, by the way). Toward the right of your picture, out of focus, are two long thin silver rollers at the end of the QL plate that press the film into contact with the sprocket wheel. These do roll and touch the film, and should be inspected to make sure they are clean and straight. You can also look for debris or nicks around the film gate, the sprocket wheel cover, and the pressure plate.

As koraks suggests, examples of the scratches would help. You should figure out if they are on the emulsion or back side, for example.

A common issue with these cameras is that the light seal foam on the back top and bottom edges deteriorates, leaving a mess. Make sure there are not little particles of foam floating around the film chamber or stuck to something.

 

[Tomro]

thanks reddesert for the helpful reference and explanation.
Lightseals got replaced. they are fine. no light leaks at all. As you can see from the picture of the scratches, they are identical on all frames. Particles floating around should produce various scratches across frames I suppose-

 

[koraks]

you can see several scratches in the middle of the frame, film winding direction.

Yeah, absolutely. I assume they are on the backside of the film, correct? Also, they seem at first glance to run straight, but on closer inspection there seems to be a little waviness about them. Is this correct?
Is this film bulk-loaded by any chance?

 

[Tomro]

Yeah, absolutely. I assume they are on the backside of the film, correct? Also, they seem at first glance to run straight, but on closer inspection there seems to be a little waviness about them. Is this correct?
Is this film bulk-loaded by any chance?

It actually is bulk-loaded In order to only have 12 shots in the cassette.
You think it might be the loader?
However, I think I used Kodak Gold 2 years ago and a roll of Foma200, both not bulk loaded, and had similar scratches - but I’m not 100% sure about that.

edit: and I did test a roll of film from the same loader with a Nikon N80 which had no scratches

 

[koraks]

Scratches like these are really common if you use a Watson-type bulk loader and forget to open the gate while spooling the film...ask me how I know. So yeah, that's the first place I'd look.

 

[Tomro]

Scratches like these are really common if you use a Watson-type bulk loader and forget to open the gate while spooling the film...ask me how I know. So yeah, that's the first place I'd look.

it’s a Kaiser/AP loader. Is this also a Watson type? I know that you can only wind it when it’s closed.
However, as I said: other rolls from the same loader in different cameras don’t show these scratches

 

[koraks]

I've never used the Kaiser loader so I don't know whether it can also scratch film, and if so, how. Keep in mind that dirt/sand in the felt light trap of the 35mm cassette can also result in these sorts of scratches.

The slight waviness (if I'm seeing it correctly) and the rarity of having a camera damage film this way makes me lean towards something associated with the bulk loading process and not a camera defect. Even more so because some of the smaller scratches seem to not run the full length of the film, and there's no sign of an interruption as you'd typically see die to the manual film transport, which would typically leave small disturbances in the scratches that coincide in frequency with the frame spacing.

 

[Tomro]

Thanks for the many helpful indications where to look and for what, koraks.
I once got a Nikon F80 where all frames had a tiny horizontal scratch in the middle of the frame. Never used bulk loaded rolls on that one and it only happened with that camera. Back then I thought it had to do with the pressure plate but I never figured it out.

Back to the QL17: I thought that the small 6 (?) rolls inside the Canonet I showed in the OP were responsible and that they produce the scratches a bit at random whenever the film during advancing it or rewinding it touches them at a certain angle.

The two threads on Flickr made me think that it is something with the camera, but of course I might be completely wrong.

Not knowing the origin of these scratches will make me want to abandon the QL17 again, even though I like it concept wise.

 

[koraks]

It's possible that it's a camera problem, don't get me wrong. I just don't think it's the most likely cause.
Those little rollers, do they move freely? If they do, they're very unlikely to be a problem. If look for abrasions on the pressure plate if I'd suspect the camera. Especially along the edges. There's also often one or two holes in the pressure plate where it screws into the back (IDK if it's also the case on the QL17); that would also be a potential problem spot.

 

[Tomro]

I understand. I just cannot explain why the scratches only happen with the Canonet. Could still be at random, given the small sample size of 4 rolls…

The two rollers that reddesert mentioned are moving freely. The little ones in the middle near the hinge move freely as well when I move them with my fingers.
the pressure plate is indeed fixed by two screws. They are lowered into the metal.
However, one can see wear marks on the pressure plate, which I find strange. Never had this on any other 35mm camera.
See the picture attached

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Most bulk loaders pull the film through felt. I haven't used the Kaiser but I'd suspect it if it is in fact one that pulls film through felt.

 

[Tomro]

I had used myself (or given to others to use) rolls from this bulk loader in a few other cameras, and there were no scratches.
It puzzles me.

In the meantime I‘d put some empty old film in and just advanced it and rewound it several times to see if the scratches increased, and from just looking at it, it did indeed.
Strange thing was, that once the film got stuck after 9-10 frames. When I opened the QL17 I could see that the film was not wound tightly on the right side but like puffed up. Maybe something is wrong with the QL mechanism…

 

[koraks]

It's been ages since I last handled a Canon with this QL mechanism. Back then it seemed pretty fool-proof, but you may be right.

 

[Tomro]

The unfortunate thing with these cameras is that letting do a repair is financially most often not sensible