Canon IIF2 shutter problem

[armadsen]

I just got a Canon IIF2 from KEH. It was graded EX+ and is indeed in very good cosmetic condition. Unfortunately, they seem to have missed a problem with the shutter. Specifically, when winding/cocking the shutter, as the curtain edges travel across, the bottom edge of the first curtain is behind where it should be leaving a (triangular) gap between the curtains.

Searching for this problem is difficult because I don't know what terms to use to describe it. Anyway, my questions:

- Is this problem relatively common? Is it likely fixable without replacing the shutter curtains entirely?
- If it's fixable without new shutter curtains, is it something that's DIYable (I'm a skilled electronic technician, with a decent collection of tools for very small precision electronics work, but little experience with camera repair).
- Any recommendations for a good repair shop that will repair/replace this?

Photo of the problem (midway through cocking the shutter):

 

[dxqcanada]

It looks like the lower first curtain strap has detached from the roller or is torn, or has detached from the curtain.
You would have to take the body apart to see the curtain straps.
If it is just detached from the roller, you should be able to glue it back on.

 

[dxqcanada]

Definitely not EX+

 

[r_a_feldman]

Fixing and tensioning shutter curtains is not trivial. I would return the camera to KEH for a refund.

 

[dxqcanada]

Fixing and tensioning shutter curtains is not trivial. I would return the camera to KEH for a refund.

Yes, not trivial. You do need tools (which you mention) and knowledge of the mechanism ... unless you got this for penny's, you may want to get you $$ back.

 

[Dan Daniel]

KEH has its own repair shop. Show them this, ask them to either fix it or give you a refund.

 

[armadsen]

Thanks for the input. Sounds like the DIY route might not be best, though I watched a few YouTube videos and it seems like the kind of thing I could learn to do with some practice. I'm just not sure I want to use this camera as my learning unit. I didn't see anything that looked too scary, nor beyond my tool bench and small handwork capabilities in general.

I did call KEH. They said that their repair department doesn't have the parts to fix it, otherwise they'd let me return it and fix it under warranty. I asked about a partial refund so I can send it out and have someone else repair it, and they're supposed to get back to me about it today, but either way, they're happy to let me return it for a full refund.

While them grading it EX+ while it obviously has a problem with the shutter is annoying, they've been extremely pleasant to deal with about the issue so far.

 

[armadsen]

KEH called back today to tell me they're giving me a $100 refund because the camera was graded incorrectly and should have been As-Is instead of EX+. That means I paid $49 for it, which is close enough to pennies that I'm comfortable at least taking it apart and evaluating it. Having done so, it appears that the ribbon has come off the "bar" at the end of the first curtain (not sure what to call it) due to the stitching holding it on coming undone. The curtains themselves and the ribbons are otherwise in good shape.

I'm going to attempt a repair because I'd like to learn, and am confident that if I screw up, I won't put things beyond the point of a repair (by someone else) being possible. And if I do, oh well. I mostly just like seeing old things become usable again.

 

[MarkS]

Thes cameras have a simple, reliable Leica-copy shutter. If you want to use the camera, best to have a technician repair it; any shop can handle this common issue.
Shutters need service from time time, it's just part of the deal, and yours may never have been serviced in all its 70 or so years.
Speaking for myself, I'm not good at fiddling with tiny springs and gears, and I have no proper tools or stock of spare parts. Add in that I'd rather make pictures, and you'll see why I send my gear out.

 

[dxqcanada]

Ah, you got lucky that it just "slipped off" ... you should be able to get that shutter working in no time!!

 

[henryvk]

If you have access to any kind of CRT monitor you can test the (faster) shutter speeds and adjust the shutter tension: http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/index-135.html

I don't know about the specifics of the IIf2 but I'm guessing it's like any Leica II-style shutter in that the tensioning is done via two screws on the underside of the shutter box, one for each curtain. Fine tuning shutter speeds will make sure that the shutters run as parallel as possible, giving an even exposure.

 

[armadsen]

I ended up redoing the whole shutter curtains. The material itself was fine, so I salvaged that, but the stitching and adhesive were in bad shape. Anyway, I've got it reinstalled except for final cementing of the first curtain ribbons. They're taped with double sided tape, but I'm waiting to cement them until I can verify that everything is working correctly and in the correct positions.

However, I'm running into some trouble that I don't quite understand. The symptoms are as follows:

- When I wind/cock the shutter, then press the shutter release, the shutter doesn't quite fire. I have to give it a little nudge by turning the shutter speed dial just a bit clockwise. It's as if something is catching that shouldn't be. When I look at the mechanism at the bottom of the film sprocket shaft, I see the bottom plate press down and the pin on the bottom plate clear the pin on the top, but it rotates a very short amount (a couple degrees) before catching and stopping its rotation. I have to gently nudge it then it finishes its (fast) travel around and the shutter fires. I also notice that I can gently nudge the second curtain latch pawl toward the back of the camera and the shutter will fire.

- More problematic, though possibly caused by the same underlying problem, is that when the shutter does fire (with my helping it), both curtains always fire at the same time, so there's no opening. In other words, there's never a delay between when the first curtain releases and the second curtain releases. The service guide for the camera that I found mentions that this is most commonly because the spring on the second curtain latch pawl behind the shutter speed dial has slipped off, but I've confirmed that's not the case. (Though it's entirely possible that its positioning, tensioning, or something else with that pawl is wrong, I suppose.)

I'm trying to figure out what to look at next and would appreciate any advice. To be clear, my goal with doing this repair myself is less about fixing the camera (though I do of course want to fix it), and more about learning and enjoying the process. I've actually really enjoyed my time working on it so far. I have plenty of working cameras to shoot with, including a couple Barnack Leicas.

To allay any concerns and hold off any suggestions that I send it to someone for repair: I have not yet(?) done anything that should cause irreparable damage -- no lost parts, broken parts, stripped screws, etc. I have a well stocked workbench and so far have had all the proper hand tools, etc. I think my main issue is just that I don't have a full understanding of how the mechanism is supposed to work and thus how it can fail.