Canon F1n first impression and questions

[RichLPhotography]

Welcome to the forum Rich, if you want to sell something on A.P.U.G. you have to be a subscriber and advertise in the classified section.

Yes... which is why I didn't directly post the ad. Don't worry though... after investigating and looking around yesterday, it looks like this is a great site and community, so I signed up this morning and subscribed. I'll be posting an official ad later today, as soon as my account is approved to do so.

Edit:: here is a link.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[Markster]

I've only worked with A-series cameras, but the more I think about it lately, the more I want to get myself an F1 New. Problem is, as always, budget constraints.

They're always too expensive! Oh well, I guess it's expensive because it's still in demand. People still want them. Rich, yours looks in great condition, but too rich for my blood.

 

[RichLPhotography]

I've only worked with A-series cameras, but the more I think about it lately, the more I want to get myself an F1 New. Problem is, as always, budget constraints.

They're always too expensive! Oh well, I guess it's expensive because it's still in demand. People still want them. Rich, yours looks in great condition, but too rich for my blood.

Mark... buy my F-1 and sell your A-series cameras.... trust me, the F-1 will not let you down.

 

[benjiboy]

Have you provided a write-up on what made the F-1, F-1N and New F-1 the best in your opinion? I would be curious to read your perspective.

I will be happy to Les, I've been a photographer for more than 50 years and for more than 20 the manager of a professional photographic dealers before I retired, and have handled and used most of the best cameras that money can buy and the New Canon F1 is I.M.O. the best manual focus professional S.L.R. ever.
I suggest you read the New Canon F1 World which can explain better than I ever could. I like them so much I just bought my third body. http://web.archive.org/web/20070416051243/http://www.canonfd.com/newf1world/f1worldind1.html

 

[Les Sarile]

Ben, That's a nice brochure for the Canon New F-1 and makes a good argument for it as the best manual focus professional S.L.R. ever. You are therefore ranking it as better then the original F-1 and the T-90?

 

[benjiboy]

Ben, That's a nice brochure for the Canon New F-1 and makes a good argument for it as the best manual focus professional S.L.R. ever. You are therefore ranking it as better then the original F-1 and the T-90?

I have owned in the past two Nikon Fs an F2 and I currently own three T90 bodys ( two of these were gifts from friends who couldn't use them any more because the shutter magnets were stuck from lack of use, they become magnetized ) All the three versions of the F1 are dimensionally almost exactly the same and the controls and handling are almost identical so anyone used to the old one would have no problems with the new one the main difference between the old F1 and the New F1 are that the earlier models the F1 and F1n are purely manual mechanical cameras with matched needle metering and mechanical shutters the new F1 with the standard prism gives matched needle metering, with the AE prism aperture priority metering, and with the addition of the power winder FN or the motor drive FN shutter priority metering.the actual metering cell in the old F1 is Cadmium Sulphide and it runs off a banned Mercury 1.35V PX625 battery, the new F1 has a much more responsive Silicon Photo Diode that will read much lower lighting levels that runs off a either a PX 28 Silver Oxide battery or a PX 28 Lithium one that are easy to obtain these days.
The shutter on the new F1 is a part mechanical, part electronic one where only the slow speeds from 1/60sec to 8sec are battery dependant all the fast speeds from 1/125 sec to 1/2000 sec are mechanical so the camera will work even if the battery fails.Each of the interchangeable focusing screens are available in a choice of three different light metering patterns, centre weighted, partial, or spot metering and they are very quick to change.
Finally the materials used in manufacture, weather proofing with rubber seals, general build quality design and engineering and ten years research that went into it's manufacture to improve on the original F1 ( that to be fair some photographers prefer ). make this the best and most robust professional manual focus SLR ever, and I sincerely wish I had bought one in the days that I used to sell them but I had a young family in those days and they cost in 1986 £ 818 ($1,118 U.S.D.) which was much more than I could afford and I had to wait another ten years before I could buy one, and they still command a good price today in good condition.
If you read Canon New F1 World it will explain it all Les.

 

[Les Sarile]

As I said, the link you pointed out is a good brochure but it doesn't explain how it is that you in your opinion the Canon New F-1 as the best and most robust professional manual focus SLR ever because it doesn't compare any others to it. This time you identify why it is best for you over the T90 (gets magnetized) or the original F-1 due to improved manufacturing, additional auto exposure features, new batteries and metering. You also referenced the Nikon F & F2 and apparently found those lacking.

If you haven't already read it, a seemingly more rounded review - with some comparisons, can be found at Modern Classic SLRs Series : Canon New F-1.

 

[benjiboy]

As I said, the link you pointed out is a good brochure but it doesn't explain how it is that you in your opinion the Canon New F-1 as the best and most robust professional manual focus SLR ever because it doesn't compare any others to it. This time you identify why it is best for you over the T90 (gets magnetized) or the original F-1 due to improved manufacturing, additional auto exposure features, new batteries and metering. You also referenced the Nikon F & F2 and apparently found those lacking.

If you haven't already read it, a seemingly more rounded review - with some comparisons, can be found at Modern Classic SLRs Series : Canon New F-1.[/QUOTE

I'm not seeking comparisons Les you are, I'm not a camera reviewer this is just my personal opinion based on my experience if you want what you consider a more objective view I suggest that you do your own research, all I can tell you is I have used sold and handled all these cameras for years, I didn't find the Nikon F or F2 "lacking" they were both first class cameras it depends if you want a purely manual pro SLR or the versatility of a more modern version with the option of the choice of metering patterns and exposure functions, it's just my personal opinion, although I like them I don't consider the T90 to be a fully pro camera because of limited system of viewfinder options, lack of weather sealing and top class materials and manufacturing quality that are required for a fully pro camera and difficulty these days getting of getting them serviced and because pro quality cameras are designed to withstand 100,000 shutter actuations before they need any attention and I doubt if the T90 is capable of this.

 

[Les Sarile]

Ben, You apparently made comparisons without even knowing it. After all, how else can you repeatedly declare that in your opinion, "Canon New F-1 as the best and most robust professional manual focus SLR ever". Anyway, given your extensive background and enthusiasm of the New F-1, I simply wanted to know the basis of your opinion. No doubt that some 30+ years later, there isn't much we don't already know regarding the technical specifications of these fine machines. Myself, I simply have an appreciation of them.

 

[fstop]

I have F's F2's F3's and Canon F-1's and like all of them however...

My worthless opinion and I don't have much experience with 35mm SLR's ( see signature) I feel the F3 is the best of the era and the most durable pro SLR.

 

[benjiboy]

Ben, You apparently made comparisons without even knowing it. After all, how else can you repeatedly declare that in your opinion, "Canon New F-1 as the best and most robust professional manual focus SLR ever". Anyway, given your extensive background and enthusiasm of the New F-1, I simply wanted to know the basis of your opinion. No doubt that some 30+ years later, there isn't much we don't already know regarding the technical specifications of these fine machines. Myself, I simply have an appreciation of them.

I don't have the time or inclination Les to write an academic thesis on the relative merits of all the pro SLR's of that era, all I can tell you is that after due consideration over many years I put my own money where my mouth is and bought three F1N- AE bodys and have never regretted it.

 

[Les Sarile]

I have F's F2's F3's and Canon F-1's and like all of them however...

My worthless opinion and I don't have much experience with 35mm SLR's ( see signature) I feel the F3 is the best of the era and the most durable pro SLR.

No doubt that much can be said (much has been said!) about the Nikon F3!

I don't have the time or inclination Les to write an academic thesis on the relative merits of all the pro SLR's of that era, all I can tell you is that after due consideration over many years I put my own money where my mouth is and bought three F1N- AE bodys and have never regretted it.

Too bad given your seeming enthusiasm about the New F-1 but I can understand that not everyone is so inclined. Putting your money where you mouth is is a good testament for it.


Personally, I thoroughly enjoy the history and can appreciate the fine qualities of these fine AE capable light boxes . . .

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

I sort of agree

I have F's F2's F3's and Canon F-1's and like all of them however...

My worthless opinion and I don't have much experience with 35mm SLR's ( see signature) I feel the F3 is the best of the era and the most durable pro SLR.

The Nikon F3 is better balanced with a motor drive. However, Nikon lens focuses backwards

 

[benjiboy]

No doubt that much can be said (much has been said!) about the Nikon F3!




Too bad given your seeming enthusiasm about the New F-1 but I can understand that not everyone is so inclined. Putting your money where you mouth is is a good testament for it.


Personally, I thoroughly enjoy the history and can appreciate the fine qualities of these fine AE capable light boxes . . .

I don't want to have a museum, I don't collect cameras I just use them, and don't treat them as devotional objects.

 

[Les Sarile]

I don't want to have a museum, I don't collect cameras I just use them, and don't treat them as devotional objects.

I have to admit I do own a few of what I consider fully functional "classics" for the purposes as you said in your previous statement of doing my own research but I wouldn't consider it as having a museum. It has been a good source of entertainment as friends and family who come to the house always seem to want a picture of themselves next to the showcase . . .

I'm not seeking comparisons Les you are, I'm not a camera reviewer this is just my personal opinion based on my experience if you want what you consider a more objective view I suggest that you do your own research, all I can tell you is I have used sold and handled all these cameras for years,

There is no doubt in my mind that as much as we can all read about these from other's personal experience, these really must be handled and used in order to appreciate it.

 

[fstop]

I don't want to have a museum, I don't collect cameras I just use them, and don't treat them as devotional objects.

I have pristine examples of the bodies pictured above except for the LX but will have one at some point. Yes I do collect fine examples but also maintain a stable of user cameras of the same bodies just for the purpose of forming my opinion.

 

[Les Sarile]

I have pristine examples of the bodies pictured above except for the LX but will have one at some point. Yes I do collect fine examples but also maintain a stable of user cameras of the same bodies just for the purpose of forming my opinion.

I started as an EOS3 user and the limited 30 second maximum aperture priority AE duration was an annoyance. Not knowing any better, I assumed all these aperture priority AE types were all limited until I read about the Olympus OM4 and Pentax LX and found in their technical specifications that they can go 240 and 125 seconds respectively. After I acquired both, I found out that the OM4's 4 minute limit is hard coded while the LX will go on for as long as it takes to properly expose the scene - while monitoring it in real time and changing accordingly, or the batteries are depleted. Certainly a good argument for not strictly relying on the spec sheets!

BTW, if this is an important function to anyone, I tested the maximum aperture priority AE durations on numerous cameras and found that only the Pentax LX can do this but let me know if you are aware of any other. I have 3 LX bodies and all three have been tested to expose the same duration up to an hour given the same exposure but I have conducted individual tests with >2 hour durations. I also found all the Canon's I tested have the 30 second limit and most all other brands and models vary unpredictably but typically not dependable past a few minutes.

 

[Tony-S]

I read about the Olympus OM4 and Pentax LX and found in their technical specifications that they can go 240 and 125 seconds respectively. After I acquired both, I found out that the OM4's 4 minute limit is hard coded while the LX will go on for as long as it takes to properly expose the scene - while monitoring it in real time and changing accordingly, or the batteries are depleted. Certainly a good argument for not strictly relying on the spec sheets!

Do these cameras also have a facility for reciprocity? I imagine that could be quite bad without one.

 

[Les Sarile]

Do these cameras also have a facility for reciprocity? I imagine that could be quite bad without one.

There are no cameras that are programmed to account for reciprocity as far as I know. Heck, I doubt that even the Fuji, Kodak - and other, folks would know the reciprocity for their films given these extreme durations and various lighting conditions.
Here is one such test I conducted using the LX with Kodak Gold 100. The results without any compensation looks "normal". I've conducted similar tests with other films and the results all look "normal".

 

[Tony-S]

There are no cameras that are programmed to account for reciprocity as far as I know. Heck, I doubt that even the Fuji, Kodak - and other, folks would know the reciprocity for their films given these extreme durations and various lighting conditions.
Here is one such test I conducted using the LX with Kodak Gold 100. The results without any compensation looks "normal". I've conducted similar tests with other films and the results all look "normal".

While I'm sure that's fine for some color negative films for shorter duration exposures, I'm also sure that longer exposures with slide film will cause all kinds of problem. Thus, the use of autoexposure without some means of compensating for the reciprocity effect, which varies by film, seems to obviate the need for such a mode.

 

[Les Sarile]

While I'm sure that's fine for some color negative films for shorter duration exposures, I'm also sure that longer exposures with slide film will cause all kinds of problem. Thus, the use of autoexposure without some means of compensating for the reciprocity effect, which varies by film, seems to obviate the need for such a mode.

It may seem that way to the casual observer but keep in mind that all of these AE capable machines have a + or - 2 exposure compensation control that can be used - along with recommended filters.

Now, if you were to look at the datasheets for some slide film - like Fuji Velvia 50 for example, it states to add +1 stop at up to 32 seconds which is well within the range of the control. Fuji Velvia 100 requires +2/3 compensation and the same for Velvia 100f. These are all within the exposure compensation control of these cameras except that only the LX can actually accommodate these extended exposure times past the others limitations.

I am glad you pointed this out as the spec for Velvia 50 states exposure duration of 64 seconds is listed as not recommended while Velvia 100/100f list up to 8 minutes but do not have any other qualifiers as the Velvia 50. May provide some interesting results!

 

[Tony-S]

Now, if you were to look at the datasheets for some slide film - like Fuji Velvia 50 for example, it states to add +1 stop at up to 32 seconds which is well within the range of the control.

Are you sure about that? Velvia 50 used to start suffering from the reciprocity effect after 1 to 4 seconds, plus it required magenta filtration. This is one of the reasons I use Provia 100F - it has much better reciprocity characteristics. Has Velvia 50's forumulation changed in the last few years? Here's a shot with Velvia 50 that exemplifies its weak reciprocity characteristics.


St. Mary Falls, Glacier National Park, USA

 

[Les Sarile]

Are you sure about that? Velvia 50 used to start suffering from the reciprocity effect after 1 to 4 seconds, plus it required magenta filtration. This is one of the reasons I use Provia 100F - it has much better reciprocity characteristics. Has Velvia 50's forumulation changed in the last few years? Here's a shot with Velvia 50 that exemplifies its weak reciprocity characteristics.

The Fuji Velvia 50 datasheet (AF3-0221E2) does list a range of durations but it does state not recommended over 64 seconds.

So I conducted about a 7 hour start trails test - my first ever, using Velvia 50 and got the image below with no compensation or filtering. I learned that I should know if the moon will appear in the scene sometime during the exposure. I think the yellow pine trees - normally green, was due to light from around my backyard.

Anyway, plenty more trial and error to have fun with. I like the that there are uncharted territories to explore . . .

 

[lxdude]

Provia and Acros will both go out to 2 minutes with no compensation. That makes cameras that can time out that far on AE very useful, if the scene will not fool the meter, as can happen. Even if it is fooled, one nice thing about night exposures is that they are more subjective. A range of exposures from mostly dark to full daylight will all work, depending on what is wanted. An LX will attempt to make a night scene look like daylight, and will go all night to do it, if the batteries hold out.
I like night scenes to look like night, so less exposure is generally desirable. Using the compensation dial helps accomplish this, as do reciprocity characteristics, if they come into play. I seldom concern myself with the color shift, though I will compensate according to the manufacturer's directions sometimes.